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Bottled Water Vs. RO Water

Discussion in 'Archives & FAQ' started by something'sfishy, Mar 23, 2005.

  1. something'sfishy

    something'sfishy New Member

    Is it ok to use bottled water to top off my reef tank? or is it bad because of the mineral content? Please help.:help:
  2. druluv

    druluv New Member

    Here is a article on water purification.....
    What is RO/DI?
    RO/DI stands for Reverse Osmosis and Deionization. The product is a multi-stage water filter, which takes ordinary tap water in and produces highly purified water.
    Why do I need it?
    Tap water often contains impurities that can cause problems when added to an aquarium. These may include phosphates, nitrates, chlorine, and various heavy metals. Phosphates and nitrates can cause algae blooms. Copper is often present in tap water due to leaching from pipes and is highly toxic to invertebrates. A RO/DI filter removes practically all of these impurities.
    How does it work?
    There are typically four stages in an RO/DI filter: sediment filter, carbon block, reverse osmosis membrane, and deionization resin. If there are less than four stages, something was left out (typically the DI stage). If there are more, something was duplicated.
    The sediment filter, typically a foam block, removes particles from the water. Its purpose is to prevent clogging of the carbon block and RO membrane. Good sediment filters will remove particles down to one micron or smaller.
    The carbon, typically a block of powdered activated carbon, filters out smaller particles (often down to 1/2 micron or smaller), adsorbs some dissolved compounds, and deactivates chlorine. The latter is the most important part: free chlorine in the water will destroy the RO membrane.
    The RO membrane is a semi-permeable thin film. Water is forced through it under pressure. Molecules which are larger/heavier than water (which is very small/light) penetrate the membrane less easily and tend to be left behind.
    The DI resin exchanges the remaining ions, removing them from the solution.
    What are CTA, TFC, and PVC?
    There are three types of RO membranes on the market: Cellulose Triacetate (CTA), Thin Film Composite (TFC), and Poly-Vinyl Chloride (PVC). Almost all of the membranes sold for aquarium use in the US are TFC. PVC membranes are currently available only outside the US. The notable difference between these types is how they are affected by chlorine: CTA membranes require chlorine in the water to prevent them from rotting. TFC membranes are damaged by chlorine and must be protected from it. PVC membranes are impervious to both chlorine and bacteria. This FAQ assumes you're buying a TFC membrane.
    Do I need a DI stage?
    You can save some money by purchasing a three-stage filter lacking the DI stage. Reverse osmosis typically removes 90-98% of all the impurities of note. If that is good enough for your purposes, then the DI stage is not necessary. RO filtration by itself is certainly better than plain tap water and in many cases is perfectly adequate.
    RO filtration by itself is not adequate if your tap water contains undesirable elements that need to be reduced by more than 90-98%. For example, if there is 10 PPM of phosphates in your tap water, reducing it by 90% takes it to 1 PPM, which is still too high.
    To save money up front, a DI stage can be easily added to the system at a later date.
  3. doboy

    doboy New Member

    If you live in L.A., you are lucky. Get a couple 5 gallon water bottles, and fill them up at the water machines you see in front of the grocery store. The ones that say Glacier are good machines. They run carbon, 3 stage r/o, and UV. IMO, it's as good or better than the best water you could make yourself. And, it's about 35 cents per gallon.
    I'm only recommending the Glacier machines because I know what's inside of them. Before my Dad retired from this business, he pointed out some machines from companies that "cheat". They sell "purified" water but only run carbon inside the machine for removing chlorine. The FDA went after some of these companies under the Truth in labeling act, but to be safe, I would only get water from the machines I trust.
    After all, you aren't just drinking it -- it's for your critters:D
  4. druluv

    druluv New Member

    Can I use just DI?
    A DI stage by itself (without the other RO filter stages) will produce water that is pretty much free of dissolved solids. However, DI resin is fairly expensive and will last only about 1/20th as long when used by itself. If you're only going to buy RO or DI, go for the RO unless only small amounts of purified water are needed.
    Do I need a ½ micron sediment filter?
    Opinions vary on whether filtering the input water finer than 5 microns has any value. Finer filtration presumably helps prevent clogging of the RO membrane, but there is a cost in terms of dollars and pressure loss. The pressure loss is particularly a problem if you have low water pressure.
    Each sediment and carbon stage should be finer than the one before it. For example, a 5-micron sediment filter in front of a 1-micron carbon block will work fine, but using a 1-micron sediment filter in front of a 5-micron carbon block is not advisable.
    Where's the value in a 7-stage filter?
    Duplicating stages can extend their life or improve their efficiency. For example, if there are two DI stages in series, one can be replaced when it's exhausted without producing any impure water. If both a 5-micron sediment filter and a 1-micron filter are used, they will take longer to clog up. If there are two carbon stages, there will be less chlorine attacking the TFC membrane. Whether the extra stages are worth the extra money is largely a matter of circumstance and opinion (they're more useful if you use a lot of water).
    Do I care about GPD?
    RO/DI capacities are measured in gallons per day (GPD), typically in the 25 -100 GPD range. The main difference between them is the size or permeability of the RO membrane. Other differences are:
    (a) The flow restrictor that determines how much waste water is produced, which must match the membrane, and
    (b) The water gets less contact time in the carbon and DI stages in high-GPD units than low-GPD units.
    As the GPD rating increases, the purity of the water produced by the RO membrane declines. Membranes above 35 GPD are typically constructed by welding two smaller membranes, meaning there's a seam. 100 GPD membranes are typically more permeable, with a lower rejection rate. The DI stage will make up the difference by removing the remaining impurities but that affects the life of the DI resin.
    Most aquarists won't use more than 25 GPD averaged over time. If a decent size storage container is used, that size should be adequate. A higher GPD rating comes in handy, however, when filling a large tank for the first time or in emergencies when a lot of water is necessary in a hurry.
    The advertised GPD values assume ideal conditions, notably optimum water pressure (65 PSI) and temperature (70°F). The purity of your tap water also affects it. In other words, your mileage will vary.
    What if I have chloramine in my water?
    Some water agencies add chloramine (a mix of ammonia and chlorine) to disinfect drinking water. That's fine, except some carbon blocks are inadequate to neutralize chloramine, so it damages your TFC membrane. It can also pass right through an RO membrane and DI resin, yielding ammonia in the resultant "pure" water. This is particularly a problem with high-GPD units.
    To find out if you have chloramine in the water, check with your local water company. Chloramine use is particularly common in large municipalities.
    If chloramine is present in your water supply, this should be discussed with the vendor prior to purchasing a system. The vendor may recommend a second carbon stage, a "catalytic" type of carbon filter, or a lower-GPD unit. At the time of this writing, the single best solution is not yet clear and a combination may be required. In any case, don't trust a vendor who isn't familiar with the problem.
  5. druluv

    druluv New Member

    What if I have well water?
    Well water is free of chlorine so there's no need to worry about it attacking the RO membrane. Do not buy a CTA membrane if you have well water, as bacteria will destroy it. A carbon block is usually not needed for well water, but well water often contains higher levels of particulate matter than treated water. Consider adding a second particulate filter in place of the carbon. If your well is prone to "red" water problems due to iron bacteria, a back-flush option will help reduce membrane fouling.
    Why are there multiple outputs?
    An RO filter has two outputs: purified water and wastewater. A well-designed unit will have about four times as much wastewater as purified water. The idea is that the impurities that don't go through the membrane are flushed out with the wastewater.
    There is nothing wrong with the wastewater except for a slightly elevated dissolved solid content. It may be cleaner than your tap water because of the sediment and carbon filters. Feel free to water your plants with it.
    An RO/DI filter may have separate outputs for the RO stage and the DI stage. The RO output can be used for drinking or other purposes that don't need highly purified water.
    How do I hook it up?
    The input line is connected to a cold water line. It can either be hooked up with a saddle valve that pierces your existing copper pipe, attached to your sink faucet with a special adapter (which is good for those in rental properties or apartments), or to a hose bib.
    The wastewater goes down the drain. If you have a PVC drainpipe, the waste line can be connected to it. You just need a drill and a saddle.
    The purified outputs go where you want them. A common approach is to feed the DI output through a float valve to a reservoir. When using a float valve system, an auto-shutoff valve is required to shut off the incoming water to the RO unit. Otherwise, water will continue to pass through the wastewater outlet, consuming water un-necessarily. Check with the vendor at the time of purchase to discuss this option.
    To make sure you have the correct adapters, installation problems should be discussed with the vendor when purchasing the system.
    What is a TDS meter and do I need one?
    A TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) meter measures the conductivity of the water, which is an indication of water purity. Without one, it's difficult to tell how well the RO/DI unit is working.
    Read your tap water first. Readings in the 50-500 PPM range are typical for most households. The RO output should be less than 10% of the tap water. The DI reading should be 0 or 1. For example, if your tap water reads 200, the RO output should be less than 20 and the DI output should be 0 or 1.
    Always let the unit run for a few minutes before measuring TDS on the output. The first half-gallon or so will normally have an elevated reading. That's because impurities will equalize across the RO membrane over time when the unit is idle.
    New RO/DI units may need to be thoroughly flushed out before reading the TDS values. Let the manufacturer's instructions be your guide.
    Note that TDS is not a good measure of water quality. It's entirely possible to have perfectly good water with a reading of 500 and toxic water with a reading of 50. Also note that some impurities don't register. The purpose of the TDS meter is to measure the efficiency of the RO/DI unit, not cast judgement on your water.
    How do I know when the filter needs servicing?
    Sediment and carbon stages: If you have city water (with chlorine) the sediment and carbon stages should be replaced regularly. The rule of thumb is every six months. Alternately, a swimming pool chlorine test can be used: the carbon is OK if the test reads as zero. This is less critical if you have well water. If you have a pressure gauge you can tell when the sediment & carbon filters are clogged: the pressure will start to drop.
    RO membrane: There are two ways the RO membrane can fail. It can develop holes, allowing impurities through, or it can get clogged up. If the input pressure is OK but you're not getting the expected output, the membrane is probably clogged. If the TDS meter shows RO output above 10% of your tap water, it's developing holes. A RO membrane typically lasts 3-5 years.
    DI resin: The TDS reading on your DI output should read 0 or 1. The DI resin is exhausted when the reading starts to climb. Some DI resins change color as they are exhausted. Note that the color will probably change well before the DI resin really needs to be replaced - use the TDS reading to decide when to replace the resin.
  6. druluv

    druluv New Member

    Do I need a pressure gauge?
    The gauge that comes with some RO units measures the pressure on the input side of the membrane (or on the waste side, before the flow restrictor, which will give the same reading). This allows you to tell if there is adequate line pressure and if the sediment & carbon stages are getting clogged. Optimum input pressure is in the 60-80 PSI range. Below about 40 PSI the unit will operate less efficiently. The units are typically not rated to operate above 80-90 PSI.
    Do I care about temperature?
    The GPD ratings are for room temperature (~70 ° F). Colder water travels more slowly through the membrane, which reduces the output. If a high-GPD unit is connected to a cold water line, that can be a problem. Here's a solution from Marc Levenson:
    You want approximately 25' or 30' feet of tubing from the connection at the cold water running to the RO/DI unit.
    Fill a 5-gallon bucket with water, and coil the excess tubing in the bucket so it is submerged. Immerse a small aquarium heater set it to 78 degrees F. As the RO/DI unit kicks on, water in the tubing will be warmed up to 78 as well, since it processes rather slowly, and the membrane will be able to produce maximum output in the dead of winter.
    Do I need a flush kit?
    A flush kit allows periodic flushing of some water across the RO membrane, thereby removing some of the gunk that sticks to it. Regular flushing will extend the life of the membrane.
    Do I need a booster pump?
    The RO membrane works best when the input pressure is in the 60-80 PSI range. Lower pressure reduces the output and increases the ratio of waste to purified water. Below 40 PSI it will be greatly reduced. Below 30 PSI it won't work well at all. If your input pressure is less than about 40 PSI, it's advisable to consider getting a booster pump.
    Make sure there is a pressure cutoff switch for the booster pump (connected to the RO output). Otherwise, it will run continuously.
    Can I drink the purified water?
    The RO output water is excellent for drinking. Most vendors offer a drinking water kit that includes a pressure tank, a small faucet which can be attached to your sink, and a post-filter for the drinking water. The post-filter supposedly improves the taste.
    A DI stage is not recommended for drinking water.
    Do I need an UV sterilizer?
    Some RO drinking water systems include an UV (ultraviolet) sterilizer. This is appropriate if you are concerned about biological contamination of your drinking water. It is a waste of money if you're just using the water for an aquarium.
    Should I buy a premium RO membrane?
    Some of the name brands (notably Kent Marine and Spectrapure) offer premium RO membranes that are claimed to remove a higher percentage of impurities. Assuming it's true, these will extend the life of the DI resin. For instance, if a "normal" RO membrane removes an average of 95% and a premium membrane removes 98%, the DI resin should last over twice as long. Whether that's worth the extra up-front cost, you can decide for yourself.
    What about silicates?
    There's a lot of advertising hype about how some RO membranes are better than others at removing silicates. Before spending extra money for that feature read Silica in Reef Aquariums by Randy Holmes-Farley in the January 2003 issue of Advanced Aquarist.
  7. doboy

    doboy New Member

    Drluv,
    I didn't mean to jump on your very valuable info. I posted while you were writing. Bang guy was looking for valuable threads a while back. This is definitely one of them!
    Jim
  8. wocka

    wocka New Member

    what about the zephryhills water in the 5gallon jugs?, on the top it says reverse osmosis,microfiltration, and ozonation?
  9. something'sfishy

    something'sfishy New Member

    Thanks, guys for all your input!! When I checked my reef tank this morning, all of the coraline algae on the sand bed are gone...I was worried that I use Sparklett Bottled water or they were just eaten by my critters/inverts? My tank is a month old with some inverts, 1 fish 2 soft corals and some LR. Is this normal?
  10. saltaddict

    saltaddict New Member

    Something'sFishy
    Your original question was can I use bottle water. I have RO/DI and which when I test with my TDS meter gives me 0.00 PPM for a reading. I have tested my well water and it reads 289 PPM. I have also tested two different brans of bottle water and received readings in the 30 -35 PPM . I do not recomend using bottle water ro/di is the way to go. But if I was in a pinch and neeed water. Bottle water would be a better choice than what most likely will come out of your pipes.
  11. something'sfishy

    something'sfishy New Member

    Thanks, guys!!!
    Saltaddict, I would stop adding Bottled Water...will just use RO/DI...Actually, got a new RODI set-up and hasn't started using it...might use this weekend...now, should I test the produced water beofre adding it or is it fine just add it to the tank?
  12. saltaddict

    saltaddict New Member

    tds meters are cheap around $30 and they only take 2 to 3 seconds to give you a reading. I always test the water that is produce. When you start to produce water wich is no longer less than 10 PPM it's time to start thinking about changing componenets. If you don't test regularly you could possibly exceed the life of your units filters.
  13. something'sfishy

    something'sfishy New Member

    what is the 10ppm? is that ammonia or phosphates?
  14. saltaddict

    saltaddict New Member

    Total dissolved solids a measurement for freshwater analogous to salinity in saltwater. It is measured by the TDS meter an it shows total concentration of ionized substances dissolved in the water ( How pure the water is)

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