Help to make a sump without drilling my tank

[jstdv8]

good visuals. Yeah it won't matter how little water you get back up to teh DT from the sump as long as its not more than the overflow is rated for.
you could do 10gph and it would just put 10g an hour into the DT and the overlow would in turn send 10g an hour back down into the sump.
I do my water top off in my sump. I ikeep track of the water level in the return pump section (far right on my sump) and when it gets low I pour freshwater into the skimmer section so that it has time to dillute with the other water before getting pumped back inot the DT.
someday i will have an automatic top off that will take care of this for me

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by Jstdv8
http:///forum/post/3279905
good visuals. Yeah it won't matter how little water you get back up to teh DT from the sump as long as its not more than the overflow is rated for.
you could do 10gph and it would just put 10g an hour into the DT and the overlow would in turn send 10g an hour back down into the sump.
I do my water top off in my sump. I ikeep track of the water level in the return pump section (far right on my sump) and when it gets low I pour freshwater into the skimmer section so that it has time to dillute with the other water before getting pumped back inot the DT.
someday i will have an automatic top off that will take care of this for me

Actually your method is realy the same as mine for adding top off water...
I have a 10g tank to hold RO water; I have to fill that tank with a 3g jug of water every other day. It is the same thing you are doing by pouring water into the sump…but I don’t understand how you would measure it to match what is evaporated. The ATO unit has a sensor to know when the level drops and fills the tank back up from the 10g under the stand.
I have run into a glitch… I can’t get the 20g under the stand from the front. (cardboard box for testing) The opening with the door is too narrow. The back is open enough but I would have to move the tank..that is not doable. The 10g had to be put in at an angle and I had a tough time, the 20g is bigger.
The opening is 16 inches wide, the 20g is only 12 inches wide but 24 inches long, so I really need to get the tank all the way in and turn it sideways, but the space is too confined to maneuver. The stand is only 18 inches deep from door to wall. There is a piece of wood in the center of the stand separating the two doors that block me. I knew there was a reason I have used canister filters all these years. AAAHHHH!
Maybe I can use the 20g to make a regular refugium next to the tank..does that work on the same principle as the sump and can I run the skimmer in there like in a sump? I can make a separate chamber for it, like I was going to do for a sump… Will the over flow U tube box work on it if it isn’t all the way to the floor? Please advise…

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by beaslbob
http:///forum/post/3279901
Take two examples from around the house.
first the toilet.

Take a glass of water and slowly pour it in the bowl. The water level stays the same so the water you put in has gone down the drain. Fill the glass up again and this time pour it in faster. Same thing.
Find a sink that has a little hole near the top. stopper the sink and fill it up to that hole. now try a slow water flow and the water should go up to the hole then stop. Turn the water on faster and the water level will remain about the same but the water will run faster into the hole.
So in either case and our overflows, whatever is poured or pumped into the tank (up to a limit) results in the same amount of water overflowing down the drain.
my .02

The minute you said toilet I got it..LOL I pour whole buckets of old water when I mop the floors, so I didn't need to do the test with a glass...I feel so dumb. The hole in the sink I played with when I was a kid..filling up the sink to watch water go down that opening..weird I would remember doing that.

 

[acrylic51]

The info about being able to feed the skimmer from the overflow and avoid usuing a pump on the skimmer is incorrect. You will still need a pump to drive the skimmer, just the orientation of the pump would change. It would kinda convert the skimmer to a recirc style skimmer.
Matching the pump to the over flow is important to a degree to big of a pump, the pump will drain your sump, possibly running sump dry starving the pump and possibly flooding the tank due to the overflow not being able to handle the water. Most of the shelf units can handle roughly 600gph, but that is dictated not by size of overflow box, but by bulkhead size and quantity, but there are exceptions to that as well.
If the pump is overrated for the skimmer, there are possible solutions... You could use the excess power to power things like reactors, uv's etc....the pumps can also be throttled down to a degree without harm to a pump. Thrilling down with valves should only be done on the output (discharge) side of the pump.

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by acrylic51
http:///forum/post/3280021
The info about being able to feed the skimmer from the overflow and avoid usuing a pump on the skimmer is incorrect. You will still need a pump to drive the skimmer, just the orientation of the pump would change. It would kinda convert the skimmer to a recirc style skimmer.
Matching the pump to the over flow is important to a degree to big of a pump, the pump will drain your sump, possibly running sump dry starving the pump and possibly flooding the tank due to the overflow not being able to handle the water. Most of the shelf units can handle roughly 600gph, but that is dictated not by size of overflow box, but by bulkhead size and quantity, but there are exceptions to that as well.
If the pump is overrated for the skimmer, there are possible solutions... You could use the excess power to power things like reactors, uv's etc....the pumps can also be throttled down to a degree without harm to a pump. Thrilling down with valves should only be done on the output (discharge) side of the pump.

Maybe I can use the 20g to make a regular refugium next to the tank..does that work on the same principle as the sump and can I run the skimmer in there like in a sump? I can make a separate chamber for it, like I was going to do for a sump… Will the over flow U tube box work on it if it isn’t all the way to the floor? Please advise…
I am asking if I can run my skimmer in a refugium, the way I would in a sump. The skimmer has its own pump but using it as a HOB is creating micro bubbles..I have done everything to stop it.

 

[meowzer]

Flower...you could put a sump next to your tank if you want to.....lots of people don't have their sumps under the tank
If I remember from pics.....one side of your tank is by a wall....can you fit it in between the tank and that wall.....I think that is where you keep your water

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3280043
Flower...you could put a sump next to your tank if you want to.....lots of people don't have their sumps under the tank
If I remember from pics.....one side of your tank is by a wall....can you fit it in between the tank and that wall.....I think that is where you keep your water

I could do that. I have a cabinet there and jugs for water. I can move it. I might be able to get a 30g long in that spot, which would make for a better sump. It is just that it is in my livingroom and I think it is ugly, I will have to chew on the idea a bit…maybe paint the front black..LOL.
I looked into the refugium on the side, there was one set up by tapping into the output tube of the skimmer, (where my bubbles are coming from) but they wanted the refugium to dump into a sump, which I don’t have.
It is an idea..I will think on it and run it by my Mother who has to look at it too. It just might be cheaper and easier to just get ANOTHER skimmer. The refugium is now what I think the best benifit would be.

 

[meowzer]

My refugium is in the center of my sump.....there are 3 sections....the left is the skimmer section, the center refugium, the right the return....YOU can divide your tank that way and have all the above.....
That's what I would recommend

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3280051
My refugium is in the center of my sump.....there are 3 sections....the left is the skimmer section, the center refugium, the right the return....YOU can divide your tank that way and have all the above.....
That's what I would recommend

It is still ugly..that was what I was planning to do and thought a 30g long would do better, but out where I can see it bothers me. What do you think of painting it black?

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3280054

It is still ugly..that was what I was planning to do, but out where I can see it bothers me. What do you think of painting it black?
sounds ok to me......you could also put a small curtain (or something) in front of it.....between the tank and the wall....have it match your decor.....LOL...decorate it like you did with your trash can.....don't you have lace over it????
I'm so glad my cabinet has 2 big doors in the center and they both open.....I would never be able to do anything if the only doors I had were the small side half doors.....

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3280055
sounds ok to me......you could also put a small curtain (or something) in front of it.....between the tank and the wall....have it match your decor.....LOL...decorate it like you did with your trash can.....don't you have lace over it????
I'm so glad my cabinet has 2 big doors in the center and they both open.....I would never be able to do anything if the only doors I had were the small side half doors.....

If I could, I would have a nice custom built cabinet; boy would I make some improvements, I think a curtain would just look tacky. Maybe one of those Chinese dividers….

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3280056

If I could, I would have a nice custom built cabinet; boy would I make some improvements, I think a curtain would just look tacky. Maybe one of those Chinese dividers….
Well the curtain was just an example...LOL....I have a feeling you will create something nice

 

[jstdv8]

acrylic,
Are you suggesting that she use the skimmer pump as the return pump and bring the outlet to the skimmer up and into the DT? Just trying to get a visial here. I'm not grasping how the pump could be overrated for the skimmer. or was that a misprint. What is a recirc style?
Flower,
are you talking about having the 10g under your strand and then run another pipe out of it to the 20g outside the stand?
"I have a 10g tank to hold RO water; I have to fill that tank with a 3g jug of water every other day. It is the same thing you are doing by pouring water into the sump…but I don’t understand how you would measure it to match what is evaporated. The ATO unit has a sensor to know when the level drops and fills the tank back up from the 10g under the stand."
Well, in the three chamber system like I posted the picture of the far right chamber (return pump chamber) is the only one where the water level actually changes. So any and all evaporation that takes place in the system will show in this chamber only. Your DT, refugium (middle chamber in mine) and your skimmer chamber will all have the same level of water in them every day.
So you can just mark a line on the glass where you want your water level to be inh that return pump chamber and then you can see how much it drops every day. Just fill back up to that line every day with freshwater adn you are good to go.
You can pour the water in any chamber you want in the system too, it doesnt matter. as soon as the water in any of those chambers rises above its baffle level it will overflow to the next chamber.
So I pour my top off water in the skimmer chamber, which overflows that same amount of water into the refugium chamber which overflows that same amount of water into the return pump chamber. The other two chambers are always full so if you add water it has to overflow into the next one over.
I add it to the skimmer chamber just so I get plenty of mixture of the fresh adn saltwater before it gets sucked up and dumped into the DT. this is probably not neccesary, but i figure why not

 

[jstdv8]

Flower, is that center section between your doors removeable? Like is it it's own piece that you could knock out of there and then add your tank underneath and then put the piece back in again?
Your 90g is 4' long, I have a 55g under mine. seems like a 20g should fit with ease. Maybe those doors are just not very wide.

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by Jstdv8
http:///forum/post/3280076
Flower, is that center section between your doors removeable? Like is it it's own piece that you could knock out of there and then add your tank underneath and then put the piece back in again?
Your 90g is 4' long, I have a 55g under mine. seems like a 20g should fit with ease. Maybe those doors are just not very wide.

The tank is the 10g I use for holding RO water for the ATO, to give you an idea of how small that space is. I also have a 305 Fluval and a Cascade for a 100g capacity, taking up the other side where I would put a sump.
That board looks like a main brace and it is 6 inches wide, I would be afraid to remove it. Door openings are 16 inches.

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by Jstdv8
http:///forum/post/3280075
acrylic,
Are you suggesting that she use the skimmer pump as the return pump and bring the outlet to the skimmer up and into the DT? Just trying to get a visial here. I'm not grasping how the pump could be overrated for the skimmer. or was that a misprint. What is a recirc style?
Flower,
are you talking about having the 10g under your strand and then run another pipe out of it to the 20g outside the stand?
"I have a 10g tank to hold RO water; I have to fill that tank with a 3g jug of water every other day. It is the same thing you are doing by pouring water into the sump…but I don’t understand how you would measure it to match what is evaporated. The ATO unit has a sensor to know when the level drops and fills the tank back up from the 10g under the stand."
Well, in the three chamber system like I posted the picture of the far right chamber (return pump chamber) is the only one where the water level actually changes. So any and all evaporation that takes place in the system will show in this chamber only. Your DT, refugium (middle chamber in mine) and your skimmer chamber will all have the same level of water in them every day.
So you can just mark a line on the glass where you want your water level to be inh that return pump chamber and then you can see how much it drops every day. Just fill back up to that line every day with freshwater adn you are good to go.
You can pour the water in any chamber you want in the system too, it doesnt matter. as soon as the water in any of those chambers rises above its baffle level it will overflow to the next chamber.
So I pour my top off water in the skimmer chamber, which overflows that same amount of water into the refugium chamber which overflows that same amount of water into the return pump chamber. The other two chambers are always full so if you add water it has to overflow into the next one over.
I add it to the skimmer chamber just so I get plenty of mixture of the fresh adn saltwater before it gets sucked up and dumped into the DT. this is probably not neccesary, but i figure why not
Interesting, like I said it is very close to what I have to do anyway...my 10g tank doesn't hold much.
What is nice about my method is that I can change the container to the 37g plastic can I use for water changes, and my tank is set for a week, giving me freedom to go out of town if I want to visit the grandkids.
With the tank self sufficient, my mom (or a friend) can dump a couple of frozen fish food cubes in each day and it's good to go.

 

[jstdv8]

ok, how about this.
you get 2 of the largest tanks you can fit under there at a time. 2 10g or whatever. the first one lets say on the left of your stand will be the skimmer chamber. then instead of having a bubble trap to go into the fuge chamber you put a PVC pipe between the two tanks at the height that you want the water to be in the skimmer chamber (now the skimmer tank)
The skimmer tank would then stay at that same level all the time and any overflow would flow out of the PVC pipe which conects the two tanks and flow into the tank on the right. this tank would then be spit 2/3 -1/3 with the 1/3 being the section with the return pump in it. and the 2/3 being the fuge. You now put just one bubble trap baffle inbetwen these two sections so that bubbles can't get back into the DT.
Only downside to this is you would have to drill a hole in each tank with a glass bit. not hard but I'll bet you could find a glass shop to do it pretty cheap for you. the size of the hole could be just about anything 1" or larger.
This way you could have your skimmer with plenty of room, a decent sized fuge and still get everything under the stand.
just a thought

 

[acrylic51]

acrylic,
Are you suggesting that she use the skimmer pump as the return pump and bring the outlet to the skimmer up and into the DT? Just trying to get a visial here. I'm not grasping how the pump could be overrated for the skimmer. or was that a misprint. What is a recirc style?
Jstdv8 what I was stating was, that you can not negate a pump on the skimmer by feeding it from the overflow directly. All that would happen is water would be dumped in the skimmer body and then it would fill up and oveflow the cup and no air would be injected into the skimmer to make it operate.
What I mean is that the pump would still be need to inject and mix the air and water inside the skimmer body. But by reversing the pumps hookup would be "recircing" the skimmer. Basically if the input was just left open in the sump to suck water and the; output was directed into the skimmer body, you could drill another hole in the proper location and use a uni seal, and the input an output of the pump would be hooked to the skimmer body, it would in turn make the skimmer a recirc skimmer. I state this because you don't need the pump to actually draw water into the skimmer body since your would be injecting water into the skimmer by the overflow. It's possible that by "recircing" the skimmer you could increase it's efficiency by increasing the contact time inside the skimmer body.....Hopefully I made a little sense....Sometimes it's harder to type and explain what you mean.....HTH

 

[acrylic51]

I could illustrate it some what by posting a pic of my MRC3 dual beckett recirc skimmer......I fed the skimmer directly from the overflow and just used an external pump to drive the becketts to mix the air/water inside the skimmer body.
In the pic I'm using the first shows the skimmer itself...Kinda hard to see from the first pic, but there are 2 bulkhead drilled into the skimmer base....in the additional pics you'll see alot of crazy plumbing with a gate valve (red knob) and that is water coming from the overflow going to the skimmer. The other pic you'll see the orientation of the pump and how it sorta hooks to the skimmer itself, and the pump is used to drive the water through the becketts of the skimmer mixing the air/water together......Basically it just keeps turning the water over inside the skimmer body......

 

[jstdv8]

ok cool, whats the advantage here? because all of the overflow water gets processed? Where as just dumping it into the skimmer chamber and letting the skimmer pump pick it up you are only getting what the skimmer gets? Or is it a space saving thing for flowers application?