Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything - Page 14

SantaMonicca, if you remember I placed a piece of window screen (not metal) in my wet/dry in high flow and posted the video for you ( I believe on page five). My question: how long would you estimate before I see some type of growth, any at all. I have yet to see a spec. My screen was not seeded. Thanks.

Too bad that you couldn't use it to feed tangs and such lol.

It is not working what so ever at this time. What do you know that is wrong with it? Does it need more/closer lighting? What can I do to improve it?

I would image mine is not working because the screen is slightly submerged in water. If that is the case, 1) how do the sump versions work at all, and 2) I know SOME algae grows in water, that is obvious!

I'm not trying to be the party pooper, and this is a great thread..however i think its geeting too much credit.when all it is is a simple biofilter that can be compared to a refuge with macro algea.
Or a remote sandbed.
Efficiency is still questionable..

All turf algeas just like any algea thrives under high nutrient, accumulated, nitrate,phosphates and all impurities.
Or via photo.

I don't believe, this can replace a dsb,waterchanges, denitrifying bacterial colonies or nitrogen nitrification.

Waterchanges are not just to reduce phosphate and nitrates and all other impure compounds.they also replenished trace elements and byproducts of used /unused elements by organisms.

Imo, this turf algea is getting fueled by excess uneaten foods and chemical supplements added,(I.e.kents iron liquid, should I mention the high lighting?
Try running 18hrs of light in dt and see what happends...

Pods as well as turf algeas,sponges, are bio-indicators. Meaning nutrient abundance in water column or on filamentous algeas.(Which is used as Energy)

Also, u recomend to rinse screen under tap water, which we all know it has a bunch of tds.(Another fuel for the turf).
Also, if the turf produces pods, due to the high nitrogen.(I.e. Phosphates,nitrates, ect.) And this pods feed on the algea. Wouldn't pods carry this toxins?
Fish/inverts and corals eat pods. Wouldn't that bring this impurities back to the tank?(Via comsuption)
Resulting in an ongoing cycle.

"97% of the organic matter in the ocean is in doc"
that makes sense, cause doc's are water soluble(molecules).that applies to any type of body of water.

1.6ppm in the ocean is a drop compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed. System.
THe ocean gets 1oo% water changes every few hours..
Yes we know that doc get removed by bacteria and all biological organisms.

Bacteria colonises on surfaces, not in water column.

* skimmer is just a nitryfying filter, which removes ammonia,nitrites,organics/inorganics. Which results in nitrogen compounds/gasses
.
Any organics/inorganics that were not metabolized will decompose and add extra fuel..
And the plot thickens..
Also, what makes u think that corals need so much food?

When reefs are nutrient_poor environments..
A reef only gets plankton,phyto whenever there's a nutrient tidal coming through,(I,e, a pollution).
I see your tank is not fully loaded.
So what are u feeding? Liverock?

More food=more excess nutrients/decomposition.
Resulting in the ideal domicile for the turf algea.

Great thread though..

I agree with just about every answer you provided to AztecReefs reply except the one in the quote and its only part of it that I disagree with.. skimmers DO remove ammonia. not through fractionation but via offgassing. the high air to water contact allows offgassing of the highly volatile ammonia in its liquid state to its more stable gaseous state. probably the most understated fact about having great surface area of air to water contact and turnover rates in aquariums.

The question really is how much NH3 does it remove? I've love to see a study on that.

Make it more efficient

GREAT IDEA! heres an extra idea, use a W pattern instead of a flat screen, it has more area and water will still be able to flow through!

Let's play,

Let me touch all the points.
(Note: english is the language)

1. A "remote sandbed" is usually a 5g bucket.thus making it a rdsb.

2. "Sand does nothing for phosphates"
"Also sand does not remove metals""or produce oxygen" or remove co2"

Wrong!! A dsb is what I'm refering to, not just sand grains.
Actually a dsb removes, or should I say metabolizes: metals,nitrogen,impurities,gold, (i.e.dead animals,plants,bacteria,excess foods,fish waste,urine, feces,invertebrate waste,slime,and any other compounds,toxins. Via nitryfication/denitryfication processes.
Actually the top layers of sandbed are aerobic, thus resulting in nitryfication.

Now, nitryfication filters such as a trickle,fluidbed filters,skimmers, hob filters,lr's surfaces,ect.produce oxygen to an extent.other things that produce oxygen are;powerheads,kalkwasser drip,buffering agents,vigorously water surface agitation, opening up a window, turning on a fan.
All biological organisms produce oxygen as a byproduct of photosyntesis and co2 comsumption. Aka respiration process.thus all micro algeas,macro algeas,plankton, phytoplakton,plants,animals,corals,trees,forrests, use photo as their main conductor of oxygen. Similar to the green house gas effect on earth. When photo is absent,the process changes. And that's when the bioorganisms use c02 from tank and atmosphere.or excess nutrients in water column.also kalkwasser additions at dark removes c02
Thus producing/using more available oxygen.

3. "Turf algea is documented to be the most efficient macroalgea, when it comes to removing nitrates/phosphates".

Well, that's an oxymorron, of course it will thrive under high levels of N/P.
What if your tank has little to none N/P levels? It would suck, right?
Guess where 98% of nitrates/phosphates come from?
Saltmixes,foodstuffs,chemicals,impurities,unmetabolized compounds, detrius,and so on.

I don't have to explain the nitrogen cycle to u, do I?

4. All algeas will thrive on photo and on high nutrients in water. High photo periods±high nutrients, amplifies turf,macro,micro, nuisance algeas by the ten folds.

"Nuisance algea in display cannot compete against algea on scrubber"

Wrong!! Nuisance algeas would have a good chance if they'd comsume as much N/P as turf and if were given long periods of light, as turf algea is getting. Right?

The only problem with that, is that is not very appeling to have turf,hairy,cyano,filamentous algeas thriving on DT
. As a side note; mh lighting on a dsb and lr, would keep any nuisance algea thriving.if naturally energy flux equillibrates, and metabolic food source increases.

5."Can replace water changes, if the pourpose of wc's is to dilute N/P and algea growth"

Sure it can,cause turf algea would comsume N/P that otherwise would be present in water column.
Same applies if your tank has the right amount of microbial processes,mineralization,metabolic processes. Such as various nitryfying/ denitryfying processes, photosyntesis, carbonization processes,self regulating buffering capacity, resident sulfur reduction and regeneration.
All this natural energy flux and environmental equillibria, out-competes any other type of filtration in closed systems.

6. " Uneaten foods is the major fuel source of turf algeas"

So, pretty much you're feeding the algea not your tank.cause if your tank would have an use for the excess foods, you wouldn't have a N/P accumulation problem.but since N/P are mainly introduced to tank in such high amounts that your ecosystem can't endure...resulting in the accumulation of nitrogen and phosphorous compounds in water, that's more than enough supply to maintain any type of algeas, not to mention the excess lighting. You would think that a continious harvest of turf algea, would result in 0 Nitrates and 0 Phosphates. Regarless of feeding portions.
Since N/P are the primary fuel source for turf algea. Cause it seems that nitrifycation is working fine for u. Cause you have no ammonia,nitrites in tank, do u?

However denitryfication is lagging, otherwise there would be NO N/P as byproducts, right?

7. "Iron won't do anything without inorganic N/P"

What would inorganic N/P do without iron?
Iron is an inorganic compound too. So more fuel to the fire, right?

8. " You're making my point,one of the advantages of a scrubber is that you can run additional lighting, increasing photo process yada-yada".

Isn't that aka as the conventional refugin with macro algea?
9. There's no confusion here.

I was just clarifying because you stated skimers dont remove any at all.

absolutly a scrubber has high surface area and air echange rate that will assist in off gassing of volatile chemicals like chlorine or ammonia. it was the statement of "none at all" that bugged me, thats all.

It goes without saying that animals,mammals,corals,humans,plants,algeas, bacterial colonies ect.comsume organics.

Skimmers do remove organics/inorganics via nitrification,this includes the top layers of a dsb,a hob,lr's surface. U know? Surface , Water , air ,effect.

"Hobby test do not measure organics".

Even if organics could be measured, it would be the most inaccurate test kit.cause u reallly don't know how much organics/inorganics are being metabolized via nitrifying/denitryfying bacterial. Colonies.

"Algea eat inorganics, scrubbers eat inorganics,hobby test kits do test inorganics"

That's cool to know,but isn't inorganics things like, supplements,chemicals,impurities,nitrogen,silicid acid,accumulated/ decomposed detrius,additives,phosphates and all other impurities available in water column.

"Scrubbers eat inorganics",

as well as bacteria in hob filter,deep inside lr, and lower parts of a dsb.

"Hobby test kits do measure inorganics"

U mean in the form of ammonia,nitrites,nitrates,phosphates,cooper,iron,c02, ect?

11." The algea are already soaked in sw, very little tap will absorb"

You know what consecuences that would bring? What happends when u rinse marine surfaces colonized with algeas in tap?

Its a retardation effect.



12. "Same as a fuge"

Wrong!! A fuge does not get constanly overfed by large amounts of food.
The nitrogen cycle's energy flux is dependant on the daily available ammonia/nutrients conversion by organisms via ammonification.
In short;the less available N/P in water column, the less abundance of pods or turf algeas, thus minimizing the effects of infestation due to pollution..

13. "Unsure of what u mean"

I mean just what i said.the ocean is. a self sufficient ecosystem, that gets natural water changes constantly via, run-offs of lakes,rivers,rain,glacier melts ect.

Docs are used by numerous bacterias and biological organisms
.meaning: via biogeochemical pathways.

That's how u achive balance and equillibrium in the ocean.
1.6ppm in the ocean is a droplit compare to 1.6ppm in a enclosed system
.
Because there is a tremendous amount of sediment surface and water volume in the oceans,which can easily overcome the defficientcies.

.this is not true in enclosed system.


14. "Pelagic bacteria stay in water column"

This is where the regular water changes come in hand.add a skimmer and other nitrifiers. The more filtration sources the bettter(of course).

15. Why feed corals that much?
" How about growth"

That sounds good,too bad coral's primary energy source is via photo. U know? Zooxanthellae.

16. "Reefs have much, much more food. Available than our tanks"

Oh,really?. Keep in mind that in an enclosed system, the quicker and more efficiently large amounts of nutrients are reduced to energy, the more superior its water quality.

The oceans can withstand the skewed form of nitrogen cycles. But Not an aquarium,in the long run.

I would recomend a little recap of the microbial energy paths.in order to achive balance/efficientcy.

Last but not least,take a look at the 2 most important biological processes of all marine organisms.

*respiration.

*photosintesis.

(Not high nutrient abundance)

That's why ocean waters appear blue.blue=pristine water and poor nutrient abundance.

Whether it is a photosyntetic coral or in micro/macro algeas. All reef organisms have developed an ability to use photons I.e. Light energy to convert inorganic substances into organics. This is aka photosyntesis. This is the most important process in a reef as it produces oxygen as a byproduct(autotrophic).

some is about as clear as I can get on that.

honestly I dont know the answer. most likley not enough to consider a highly signifigant reducer, but when it comes down to it I'll take any advantage I can get when it comes to reducing waste and boosting oxygen levels in my aquarium.

consider this, back before dechlorinators and tap water detoxifyers were in common use, the best way to remove chlorine was to aerate the bucket for 24 hours. reducing the amount to zero. so in 24 hours the volatile compound will go from enough to keep water potable to zero (or below testable amounts). people have done the same with ammonia in fresh mixed salt water, magnesium, one of the ingredients in our salt mixes often puts testable amounts of ammonia into our brand new water as ammonia is used to make the magnesium utelized in our salt mixes. after 24 hours of aeration all ammonia was no longer present, so say in a 5g bucket at .02 ppm nh3 all ammonia had offgassed in 24hours. that is a signifigant change. Defiantly not enough to base an entire filtration system off. but an air stone in a bucket contributes signifigantly less air contact and turnover rate than a skimmer will. so I would say the skimmers NH3 removal capacity via offgassing is a quantifiable amount. of course the scrubber as well has signifigant air to water contact and the fan units have even higher offgassing capacity that the non fan scrubber.

---Nuisance algeas would have a good chance if they'd comsume as much N/P as turf and if were given long periods of light, as turf algea is getting. Right?---


---Wrong. A scrubber is out-of-the-water, thus allowing turbulent flow across it, and reducing the amount of water blocking the light. If you put the scrubber screen under water, it will stop growing.---

This is the debate in my mind if this will be effective. why would this be more effective than a fuge full of calerpa or chaeto?