What tank and equipment to use

most of you have followed my journy regarding what specimens to place into this mythical tank over in this thread - http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/379818/new-aquarist.  Now it is time to get the tank and equipment sorted out.  I plan to get as much of this stuff over the internet for the sake of saving money.  Since all of this stuff wont change in shipping, I think its safe to buy it sight unseen.  So let me describe what i want, tell you what i have found so far, and we can go from there.

The wife and I both want a cube style tank in the 55 gallon size.  I would like to go larger IF the footprint doesn't change.  From what i have seen, most cubes are 24x24xwhatever tall depending on the gallons it will hold.  I might be able to talk the missus into getting something that is at max 27x27xwhatever but that would be pushing it.  We also will need a stand for it to house a sump/refugium underneath it which means the tank needs to be reef ready.  I do not really want the plumbing for the sump to go around the back of the tank as I am looking to keep this tank about 1.5" to 2" away from the wall.  Now that i look at the surge protectors' plug, I think it will be 2" away from the wall.  We also want a nice canopy/tank cover to go on top.  We need this to be kinda heavy so that the little fingers in our house cant lift it up to stick their fingers in the tank.  Ideally the canopy will house the lighting.  I have seen glasscages.com and for something like this there it would run $856 before shipping for a 60 gallon cube.  I did choose the option for the better glass for the "front" of the tank, but its a cube, how do they know where the "front" is?  I am leary about that reseller as I have heard that their seals do not hold up well.

The sump, it can be a simple 20 gallon tank that fits in the stand underneath the tank right?  I wont need anything custom like i have seen at some of the LFS around me.  Besides, I want to be able to place things into the sump, such as the copepods for preparing the tank for the mandarin.  I also hear it is easier to top off your tank by just adding to the sump.  What all goes in the sump?  I would assume you would want a "filter sock" to go on the water pipe leading into the sump.  I would also assume that you need to place the protien skimmer here as well as any other mechanical filters down in the sump.  What about bioballs.  I saw on this forum that they are frowned upon, why?  Where do I place the activated carbon?  As the other newb posted, do I need a second tank for the refugium or can I modify the one 20 gallon tank to partition it off to make 2?  How would i go about doing that?

In many cases your sump would sit under your DT.  You will also want to make a refugium as well.  Inside the sump is typically your hardware you don't want in your DT... such as heater, skimmer, ect.  I believe you would place your copepods in your refugium (if you make one).  Bioballs are unnecessary if you're going to make your tank a reef tank... if you have bioballs it will take away from the food and nutrients the corals will need.  You can make your refugium in your sump of course you will need a tank large enough to fit your skimmer (if you decide to purchase an in-sump skimmer) footprint, and the baffles as well as room to make your refugium.  You could do what I did and have two tanks and use them as your refugium and sump.

Specifically, what protien skimmer is recomended that is at a decent price?  I would imagine the $100 one at the LFS kinda sucks and the $200 would be better, but what should i be looking for?  what style of skimmer is better? I know that the research i do for these things will involve manufacturer's websites and I have learned long ago to not trust what the people who make it say about it.  Example, no one would have guessed that Delorian was smuggling coke in the doors of his cars, but he did say that they were excellent cars with great engines.  That all depended on whether you got the GM 6 or the Volvo 6.

This is all relevant.  I paid $160 for my skimmer but that's for a 150gallon skimmer.  Price has to do with in-sump, and HOB... it of course has to do with quality of the skimmer.  I would suggest researching a few and read the reviews to see what everyone else says.

With the lighting, I know I am going to need some good lights, but what kind really?  Can i get away with regular HO lighting or will I need to step up to the T5HO?  I am not thinking about getting metal hylide at this time due to the increased expense it will add to the start up costs.  It will be a possible upgrade 1 to 2 years down the road, maybe.  Will i need to get the blue accent lights or will they be included in the lighting setup?  Should I look for a light setup with built in fans to remove any excess heat or is that just a waste?  Is there a timer out there for the lights, that can act as a dimmer switch as well?  I get the feeling that the automatic on brightness might adversely effect the tank inhabitants and would rather have it come on slowly.  I have read that most people have the blue lights come on about an hour before the normal lights and then leave them on an hour after the normal lights go off.  I would think a dimmer would be better than that system.

If you're going to have a reef tank you're going to want 3W-4W per gallon.  Some setups come with blue accent lights and some you have to purchase on its own.  If you have a tank that won't have a canopy then I don't think you're going to need fans.  If you have a canopy then I would suggest looking at building some fans into the canopy as this is what I'm looking to do as one of my next projects.  Also, some of the setups come with pre-installed fans so you won't have to deal with that.  Just a suggestion... think about the long run, not necessarily the short term... you don't want to spend $300 on lights to only get rid of them in 2 years to pay $1000 on the lights... short term your getting your system going, but if you truly want the anemone and other type of corals then I would suggest holding on until you can purchase the lighting.

For the current or flow, I am thinking I can get away with just the 1 powerhead in the tank, but i could be wrong.  I plan to aquascape the LR into a lagoon pattern.  I was thinking the water return would create some current in the tank and then set the powerhead up in the opposite side and point it at the return to get the back and forth "wave" motion going.  Will i need a second one to ensure no dead zone inside the lagon?  90 pounds of LF is the right ammount for a 60 gallon tank, assuming I get the right kind?  Is there anything I can do to add a piece or 2 unto the sump so that there is more room in the display tank?  Obviously I dont want things to get stuck under the LR in the sump, but I am thinking that extra pieces there will only help me and not hurt me.  I could just pick up those pieces, shake them in the water to remove the build up of the nasty bits and then place them back down?

RO/DI water supply, is this a device i can hook up to the entire house's water supply or should i just set it up in the basement and reserve it for tank use and drinking water use only?  I saw the post on here where there was a user having a problem setting their's up.  To me it seemed like a more impulse buy and not enough research was done on installation of the device.  However, in general, are these things hard to hook up?  I did check at wally world and the water there is $0.39 a gallon.  But you have to have the $12 container to place it in and those are only 5 gallons.  If I did a 20% water change, that would mean i would need atleast 3 of those containers just to get the water home.  Thats redonkulous.  I know that there is no way I start out with tap water so even the option of getting the water from the LFS is there.  But I know that over time the RO/DI will pay for itself and to invest in a decent one.  So what kind should I get or is this something I should check with the local culligan man to see if they can do this for me?

I believe you MIGHT be speaking about me when you referred to someone having a problem setting their RO/DI up... that's because I'm illiterate.  It's not that hard... it comes out of the box ready to go and you hook it up to a faucet... trust me it'll be an investment you'll be thankful you made.  It'll save you on time and gas seeing that you won't have to go back and forth from your local market to get the water.  A user with the ID of "Acrylic" was kind enough to help me with this and referred me to the Typhoon III 75GPD RO/DI Unit... I haven't looked back since.  You can drink it as your own house water but I wouldn't suggest drinking it after being out in the sun, playing sports, trimming bushes, or mowing the lawn... it doesn't have the nutrients to revitalize your system... it's not bad to just take a bottle into the office and drink there though.

It seems like i am forgetting something.  Oh well, its late and I am off to bed.  opinions are welcome and desired.

edit : BLDT has offered to me a protien skimmer that I will gladly take.  Just waiting on the information on it so I can add it into the thread.

As another note, with a non-reef ready tank, will I have to find some kind of material to insulate the tubes coming from the tank to the sump and vice versa?  Keep in mind these tubes will be right against an outside wall of a house that is more than 100 years old so all the insulation in the walls is junk, eroded, or just plain gone.  And the probable position of the tank will be next to a register so we will also have the furnace/ac to deal with.  How much does this change the equipment needed going from reef ready to non-reef ready?  the pumps change?  the tubing change?  Anything else that I cant think of at the moment?

most of you have followed my journy regarding what specimens to place into this mythical tank over in this thread - http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/379818/new-aquarist.  Now it is time to get the tank and equipment sorted out.  I plan to get as much of this stuff over the internet for the sake of saving money.  Since all of this stuff wont change in shipping, I think its safe to buy it sight unseen.  So let me describe what i want, tell you what i have found so far, and we can go from there.

The wife and I both want a cube style tank in the 55 gallon size.  I would like to go larger IF the footprint doesn't change.  From what i have seen, most cubes are 24x24xwhatever tall depending on the gallons it will hold.  I might be able to talk the missus into getting something that is at max 27x27xwhatever but that would be pushing it.  We also will need a stand for it to house a sump/refugium underneath it which means the tank needs to be reef ready.  I do not really want the plumbing for the sump to go around the back of the tank as I am looking to keep this tank about 1.5" to 2" away from the wall.  Now that i look at the surge protectors' plug, I think it will be 2" away from the wall.  We also want a nice canopy/tank cover to go on top.  We need this to be kinda heavy so that the little fingers in our house cant lift it up to stick their fingers in the tank.  Ideally the canopy will house the lighting.  I have seen glasscages.com and for something like this there it would run $856 before shipping for a 60 gallon cube.  I did choose the option for the better glass for the "front" of the tank, but its a cube, how do they know where the "front" is?  I am leary about that reseller as I have heard that their seals do not hold up well. I had only suggested Glasscages.com for the idea of different size tanks that were available to order. Your LFS should be able to get their hands on any of those size tanks with better seals for you. Sorry, I should have clarified this earlier. I am going to be ordering a tank from them in the near future and if the seals are garbage, well, it wouldn't be the first tank I had to reseal, but I will keep you posted. Don't get a tank that is really deep. I have a 30" deep tank and it makes me crazy.  You'll need an insane amount of wattage for the light to penetrate all the way to the bottom which means an insanely high electric bill. I'm running 3 250watt MH + 4 54watt T5HOs + a 48" LED fixture (I forgot the wattage), it's nuts, and so is my electric bill. Try to stick with nothing deeper than 26", save yourself the hassle. I will say that the 40G breeder is one of the nicest smaller tanks to do a reef set up in. Cubes, especially as they get larger can be a little tricky to get proper flow into them. Is the space you're looking at absolutely only 2ft?

The sump, it can be a simple 20 gallon tank that fits in the stand underneath the tank right? Yes I wont need anything custom like i have seen at some of the LFS around me.  Besides, I want to be able to place things into the sump, such as the copepods for preparing the tank for the mandarin.  I also hear it is easier to top off your tank by just adding to the sump.  What all goes in the sump?  I would assume you would want a "filter sock" to go on the water pipe leading into the sump.  I would also assume that you need to place the protien skimmer here as well as any other mechanical filters down in the sump.  What about bioballs.  I saw on this forum that they are frowned upon, why?  Where do I place the activated carbon?  As the other newb posted, do I need a second tank for the refugium or can I modify the one 20 gallon tank to partition it off to make 2?  How would i go about doing that? I prefer the refugium to be separate from the sump if possible, but it's not necessary. My sump contains my protein skimmer, a nitrate sponge/filter floss, the standard sponge that comes with most sumps, a carbon reactor, a phosphate reactor AND a bag of ChemiPure Elite Carbon. You want the carbon in a high flow area of the sump. BioBalls are frowned upon because many people do not clean them or over clean them and then it creates problems for the tank. I personally do not like them and think that 90% of the time they do more harm than good because people use them improperly.

Specifically, what protien skimmer is recomended that is at a decent price?  I would imagine the $100 one at the LFS kinda sucks and the $200 would be better, but what should i be looking for?  what style of skimmer is better? I know that the research i do for these things will involve manufacturer's websites and I have learned long ago to not trust what the people who make it say about it.  Example, no one would have guessed that Delorian was smuggling coke in the doors of his cars, but he did say that they were excellent cars with great engines.  That all depended on whether you got the GM 6 or the Volvo 6. We've already chatted about this briefly.

With the lighting, I know I am going to need some good lights, but what kind really?  Can i get away with regular HO lighting or will I need to step up to the T5HO?  I am not thinking about getting metal hylide at this time due to the increased expense it will add to the start up costs.  It will be a possible upgrade 1 to 2 years down the road, maybe.  Will i need to get the blue accent lights or will they be included in the lighting setup?  Should I look for a light setup with built in fans to remove any excess heat or is that just a waste?  Is there a timer out there for the lights, that can act as a dimmer switch as well?  I get the feeling that the automatic on brightness might adversely effect the tank inhabitants and would rather have it come on slowly.  I have read that most people have the blue lights come on about an hour before the normal lights and then leave them on an hour after the normal lights go off.  I would think a dimmer would be better than that system. I suggest T5HO lighting. If done properly, you won't have to upgrade. I had T5HO's on my 40G for a long time. You've mentioned that you wanted a hood on this tank, how handy are you? You can get ballasts relatively inexpensively and then just purchase bulbs separately. I just did this for the T5's on my 155G. The ballasts, reflectors and 4 bulbs ran my about $150, as opposed to buying a premade fixture for $350+.  Built in fans help, but if you have an AC in the room it's not necessary on T5's. I have a fan running that blows at my tank throughout the day, so I didn't need a fan on my T5's, even with them being baked by my MH's. If you want a ready to go fixture, look in the Current Nova Extreme or WavePoint T5 fixtures. I wouldn't waste your time with a dimmer, Fish don't even care about the blue being on before the white. I prefer to "wake up" the corals with the blue, then the white, but it's not necessary. They'll get enough of a dimmer from the moonlight. Don't make yourself crazy.

For the current or flow, I am thinking I can get away with just the 1 powerhead in the tank, but i could be wrong.  I plan to aquascape the LR into a lagoon pattern.  I was thinking the water return would create some current in the tank and then set the powerhead up in the opposite side and point it at the return to get the back and forth "wave" motion going.  Will i need a second one to ensure no dead zone inside the lagon?  90 pounds of LF is the right ammount for a 60 gallon tank, assuming I get the right kind?  Is there anything I can do to add a piece or 2 unto the sump so that there is more room in the display tank?  Obviously I dont want things to get stuck under the LR in the sump, but I am thinking that extra pieces there will only help me and not hurt me.  I could just pick up those pieces, shake them in the water to remove the build up of the nasty bits and then place them back down? It will all depend on what your return pump to the tank is rated for. Most 40G and larger need more than one PH.  Forget about LR in the sump unless you plan on rinsing it every time you do a water change. If you don't rinse it in tank water at water changes, it will build up with detritus (fish poop) and cause more harm than good. I just went through this in my tank. My nitrates were skyrocketing and this was the one thing that I overlooked. With the sump, if you're doing a refugium, keep the sump simple. Just use it as a place to hold your skimmer and chemical filtration (carbon) and use it for extra water flow/volume.

RO/DI water supply, is this a device i can hook up to the entire house's water supply or should i just set it up in the basement and reserve it for tank use and drinking water use only?  I saw the post on here where there was a user having a problem setting their's up.  To me it seemed like a more impulse buy and not enough research was done on installation of the device.  However, in general, are these things hard to hook up?  I did check at wally world and the water there is $0.39 a gallon.  But you have to have the $12 container to place it in and those are only 5 gallons.  If I did a 20% water change, that would mean i would need atleast 3 of those containers just to get the water home.  Thats redonkulous.  I know that there is no way I start out with tap water so even the option of getting the water from the LFS is there.  But I know that over time the RO/DI will pay for itself and to invest in a decent one.  So what kind should I get or is this something I should check with the local culligan man to see if they can do this for me? It should be a separate unit. They're very easy to set up and almost all units are the same. Save some money and get one off of e - bay if you can confirm that the filters are readily available. I have a Coralife RO/DI and am very happy with it. Since you also live in NY, I'll share this with you as well: You may even be able to get away with the API Tap Water Filter for quite a long time, we have very good water quality here in NY. I used mine for my 14 and 40G tanks and FILLED my 155 with it. They're decent little filters.

It seems like i am forgetting something.  Oh well, its late and I am off to bed.  opinions are welcome and desired.

edit : BLDT has offered to me a protien skimmer that I will gladly take.  Just waiting on the information on it so I can add it into the thread. It's a Won Brothers CU-75. It's relatively unknown, but one LFS by me sells them. Great little skimmer.

As another note, with a non-reef ready tank, will I have to find some kind of material to insulate the tubes coming from the tank to the sump and vice versa?  Keep in mind these tubes will be right against an outside wall of a house that is more than 100 years old so all the insulation in the walls is junk, eroded, or just plain gone.  And the probable position of the tank will be next to a register so we will also have the furnace/ac to deal with.  How much does this change the equipment needed going from reef ready to non-reef ready?  the pumps change?  the tubing change?  Anything else that I cant think of at the moment? You can use the pipe wrap that they sell for water lines/pipes in Home Depot/Lowes/etc. The only difference in equipment is that you have to supply your own overflow box. The rest is basically the same.

Tanks - I have been able to find 60 gallon cubes that have a 24x24 footprint.  this works for both me and my wife.  It does not however work for a 20 gallon rectangle sump.  So can i do 2 10 gallon tanks, 1 for sump and 1 for refugium?  I would assume that would be a yes but how would I go about plumbing it? I would do a 20G for the sump.

The skimmer will be a Won Brothers CU-75 Protein Skimmer and from the manufacture's website it looks to be a decent venturi injector.  This is prefered right?  I read that this could get the 90% ozone mass transfer rate.  Thats a good thing right?  I get the general idea of how protien skimmers work, just need to do research on the technicalities of them. I loved this skimmer.

(incase you havent noticed, i am a very technical guy.  I am in the tech support field, i absolutly love home audio, and specification pages do more for me than picture pages.  I am a hacker and not a cracker.  A hacker is someone who takes things apart to see how they work, and then put them back together again.  A cracker is someone who takes things apart, then reassembles them with a twist to their advantage.  When you hear the work "hacker" used in mainstream media, what they really mean to say is cracker but way long ago, some moron effed that up for us true hackers.)

The calculator over at manhattanreefs . com says I will need 47 pounds of sand to cover the bottom to 2" depth.  I will need anywhere from 75 to 105 pounds of LR.  I get the feeling that Fiji LR is the best available for me since Tonga rock is not sold anymore.  Is that the opinion of most people on this board?  Generally it's a little over 1lb per gallon for sand. A lot depends on the shape and size of the tank as well. A tall tank will take less sand than a long tank will.

Pumps - imma need one for the protien skimmer, i will need one for the sump too.  Will it be a good idea to have a backup?  If so, what one tends to break more often, the skimmer or the sump? Yes, separate pumps to skimmer and return. Backups don't hurt. I've never had a pump fail, so that's a tough call.

Edit : forgot to mention the lights.  Sparty, you are suggesting to get the T5's now as opposed to putting them off right?  Thanks for the input too. I agree, T5HO's are the way to go.

Tank - 60 gallon 24x24x25 ( want a reef ready but will settle for non )  With very little searching I have found a marineland/psomething for 219 or 290 with the holes.  If we want to go bigger in this name brand, the 70 gallon cube is 30x30x18 i believe and almost 200 more.  Of course the stand gets bigger and then the 20 gallon sump is back in play.  But i am absolutely sure that the below point is going to happen.  Overflow box, whats that?  a place where the water from the sump goes to and then "spills" into the DT? An overflow box is what pulls your water from the DT and brings it to the sump. In a drilled or Reef Ready tank, these boxes are internal. On a tank that is not reef ready, these clip on, half hangs in the sump, half hangs out. If you're going this route, I highly recommend the CPR overflow box. They're a little bit more money than the standard overflows, but it will save you money if your power goes out because your sump won't overflow all over the floor and kill everything in your tank. It also has an airlifter so it will be much easy to siphon water through and get it started. Some of them, such as the EShoppes overflow box are a nightmare to get started and everytime you turn of the filtration (every water change) you have to restart the siphon again.

I'll take a picture of how mine is all plumbed later. It's a 155G, but the plumbing is the same basic idea.

2x 10 gal sumps $20 until mid september (this just might be the first purchase as this a deal that cant be passed on.)  Now all I need to know is how to plumb it.  anyone have experience with 2 seperate tanks under the DT? The refugium tank will need to be slightly higher than the sump in order for this to work properly, at least that is my experience, someone else might want to chime in with how they've gotten it to work.  The refugium on some of my tanks is internal (part of the sump) and on my 155 it is a separate system. I prefer the separate tank.

Protien skimmer - Won Brothers CU-75 Protein Skimmer  $FREE + S/H !!!!  yippie!

Pumps - going to need 2.  the return from the sump/refugium should be flowing at what 120 GPH if I am doing the math right? (20 gallons per hour per gallon of tank) I'm terrible at counting the GPH of pumps. Keep in mind how far water has to travel up water lines and back to the tank, this takes away from how many gallons per hour your pump is actually producing in your tank. I ran a Mag7 on my 40G breeder setup for a long time, and only used one K2 powerhead. The Mag7 pump worked well because the water was travelling a good 5-6' before it made it back into my tank.

Power heads - aparently will need 2 of them and they probably wont have to be all that powerful since the tank is only 24x24 This all depends on how strong your pump is, how you organize your rocks, etc. Most people are going to say that you need two, but if done right, one can be used.

Heaters - want 2.  I am thinking about putting 1 in the sump/refugium and one in the DT.  Bad idea and both should be below?  Total wattage shoud be what 600?  I forgot the formula. I would not have two. Keep one in the sump.

Lights - T5HO + the blue accents + LEDs for moonlight (?)  I am sure i can put something together for the lights, just gotta immitate wayner and plug in the fixtures into a GFCI outlet, include a drip loop, and be sure to work on them over a tank full of water with no cover. /sarcasm  I am sure i can finagle some fans from radio snack and put them up there for cooling if needed. You know, you've been talking about saving space, so why don't you also hang your TV over the tank? LOL That guy is an idiot.  The retro fits (doing it yourself) are really easy. They can be a little bit more time consuming when you first do them, but you should be fine. You'll need reflectors, bulbs and the kits and you can just hook them up to your canopy. GLO makes a kit with waterproof end caps for T5HO's, those are the kits I always use and have no issues with them. Each kit will run two bulbs and they cost me about $35 at my LFS.

LR - between 75 and 120 (probably will settle on 90) of Fiji rock.  That is the best available to me i believe.  The other choices are florida and somewhere else.  LFS do not have much of a selection really. Figi is fine. I'd say that this is what 90% of hobbyists have in their tank. I think I'm one of the few that doesn't have Figi in my tank (well more than like 3 pieces).

LS - 47 pounds of sand.  Can I buy it now and let it sit somewhere while we wait to get the tank?  I saw some sitting on a shelf in a store in a plastic bag.  I cant imagine that the turnover in that store is so high that those bags fly off the shelves.  I dont think I can buy it in quanties that will allow me to add up to 47 even so I am looking at 50 pounds of this stuff in the bottom of the tank.  But still, what size granual is recomended?  Small or medium?  I would imagine that large granual would be pretty close to gravel and that is not what i want.  Gravel belongs in a freshwater tank. I like the smaller sand, as do most people. You can buy this ahead of time, just don't leave it outside where it will get too hot or too cold. As for black or white sand, completely personal preferene. I have black in some tanks, white in others, and my display refugium has both mixed together.

water - API Tap Water Filter - well you would have to tell me who supplies your water so I can get the most recent water report and then compare it to my water supply.  I would imagine this would save me some $ but in the long run, wont $200 spent on a decent RO/DI be worth the investment?  Suffolk County Water Company.  We have like the best water in the country supposively. That filter is cheap and works well. Yes, an RO/DI is the better way to go in the long run, but the API will get your through for awhile. We used ours for over a year. The replacement cartridges are not that much if you order them online from the "doctors".

is there anything i am missing?  I know that the filtration stuff is missing, but since it is soo important, I want to get the above settled before I get that discussed. If you're doing a refugium, you need sand in there as well. For a 10G tank, a 20lb bag of sand should be good. I think I used two in my 20G refugium.  You want the sand bed to be 4" or so inches deep in the refugium as opposed to the 2" you'll want in the tank.

tank - 60 gall 24x24x25 non reef ready $219 + stand $216 {elmers} OR $470 at glasscages.com [90 day warranty] OR $173.99 tank and $185.79 stand {drive to lancaster PA for puickup} + CPR overflow box CS50 $76 {marineandreef} + drain hose $22 + Aqua-Lifter Dosing Pump $12 + Aqua Lifter Suction Pre-Filter (?) $4 + Sponge (the site didnt specifically have one for the CS50) + the hang on return nozzles $?.  I will also need some kind of canopy to put the lights in and to act as a cover. For right now, simple glass covers $36 {elmers}.  And we are now at atleast 4" from the wall.  I can soo see the 70 gallon at 30x30 going farther and farther out of sight.  "Curse you aqua scum!" You know where I stand on the whole tank thing.... and I love the Finding Nemo quote! Whenever I have an unexplained issue in my tank, these are the words that come out of my mouth.

2x 10 gallon tanks for sump and refugium $20 + CPR Aquatics Sump Inlet Assembly w/ Filter Sock{marineandreef} $25. sounds good

Protien skimmer - Won Brothers CU-75 Protein Skimmer  $FREE + S/H !!!!  yippie!

Pumps - going to need 2.  the return from the refugium should be flowing at what 120 GPH +/- bends in the tubing if I am doing the math right? (20 gallons per hour per gallon of tank.  Someone confirm that is the correct formula to use.)  the other pump is for the protien skimmer, what size do I need there?

Power heads - maybe will need 2 of them and they probably wont have to be all that powerful since the tank is only 24x24 2x $23 for $46 total {marineandreef}.  Price is based on first one i saw as I will need to do research for what kind of powerheads to get. Stick with the Koralia powerheads, they're well known and trusted. If you want to get crazy with money (which I know you're wife just loves to let you do!) take a look at the EcoTech Vortech MP20 and MP40. Honestly, I thought it was way too much to spend, but now that I own one, I could never go back to regular powerheads. If you can't afford it now, it's something to look towards in the future as well.

Heaters - want 2.  Can someone comment on the locations of them.  I want 2 heats and I will be getting 2 heaters.  I would hate to have just the one and have it break either on or off (cooked fish or frozen fish).  I also forgot the total wattage I am going to need for the 60 gallon tank.  Is it 300w total or is it less?  I also need some suggestions as to name brand heaters.  So far, the one in the freshwater tank seems to be working just fine and its a cheap tetra submersible.  for now 2x Eheim Aquarium Heater 150w submersible at $24 a shot for $48 total {marineandreef}.  Again, first one I saw.  I do know I want submersible, indicator light, shatterproof glass.  <-- smart.  I know I mentioned not to put one in the DT, if you're set on two, go with one in the refugium and one in the sump.

Lights - T5HO + the blue accents + LEDs for moonlight (?) - 2x kits to get a total of 4 lights (2 blue and 2 normal) at $35 x2 = $70 + 2x T5HO lights at 120w [total of 240w] (recomendations are welcomed) + 2x blue accent lights (or do I only need 1?  If i only need one will I need 3 kits then to get the timers right?) Be careful here with the wattage of lights. You're tank is a cube, seems you're completely set on that, so you'll need the bulbs to only be 24" or less. My husband brought up a good point tonight and said that you might be better off with just one 150watt halide, electricity wise, it might actually save you money? Something to ponder. People are ALWAYS selling halides on MR. I just bought a 150watt Current Orbit? for my 14G, it only cost me $100 because it's a small light, only 24 inches wide.

LR - between 75 and 120 (probably will settle on 90) of Fiji rock. I think i can get it from my LFS at $4 a pound. Is this for cured rock? That's a good deal. As for the lbs, as long as you have minimum of 1lb/g, the rest is really up to how you want to aquascape and will just aid in filtration. Is it best to get all the LR all at once or get half to start the cycle of the tank and the other half once the cycle of the tank is complete? If the rock is fully cycled it won't matter, I've added rock to my tank at different points that was fully cycled. It is easier to add all the rock before you do anything else though. If you choose to add rock later on, just bring a bucket with some tank water in it when you go to pick up the rock so that you can keep it wet, this will prevent anything on the rocks from dying while in the air.  I plan to cycle the tank without fish or chemicals.  Just rock + sand + water + lots of water tests daily almost for about 4 weeks. Finally someone who is doing some research!  Wait a tic, wont I have to add the cleaner inverts at some point?  I really do not want to do to the SW tank like what happened to the FW tank by hurting the animals in the tank and using all kinds of chemicals to get the water right.  My daughter might not be able to wait for fish, but I can.  Add the inverts when parameters seem stable for at least one week. If your daughter can't wait, just simply ask her if she wants nemo and jacque to die. This usually keeps the kids quiet.

LS - 47 pounds of sand in the DT and then probably the remaining 13 (sand is sold in 10 and 20 pound bags.) pounds into the refugium tank.  Gotta check on prices for this stuff.  Was probably going to go with a small to medium sized granual.  I know I dont want too tiny and I know I dont want too large either. What brands?  See if your LFS will sell you some sand out of their tanks to help seed yours with.

water - API Tap Water Filter maybe  OR  some kind of RO/DI filter more likely.  Gotta do research on both before i can make a decision or get prices on them.

water test kids - I would imagine that the API water test kit would be just fine for me.  the big one that does all the tests, like $32 or so. API is fine to start with and basically the industry standard. As you get more and more advanced you may find that you want even more accurate readings, at which point I'd recommend Salifert, but absolutely not necessary for starting out.

Pictures of seperate sumps + refugiums are greatly appreciated as I gotta figure out how to connect them together and get an idea of the filtration that is setup in the sump.  Asside from copepods in the refugium, what else do I want growing in there?  Plants? hermit crabs?  I've been tossing all my hermits from my DT's into the refugiums. I actually keep one small fish in mine, a smaller cleaner shrimp and some snails.  As for plants, Caulerpa and/or Chaeto, I have both. A few rocks in there, small frags in piles as well to help the copepods have a place to breed. What is missing, anything?

edit : went to LFS and found some info on the live sand.  I am begining to get the urge to steal the $ to get this started.  Stoopid IRS holding our tax return.  Oh well, its mostly our own fault.  we had to file for an extention and then filed it on the last day possible.  The $ for this prolly wont arrive until the end of september.

I certainly looks like it will be a drive to lancaster PA to get the tank.  It is only a 5.5 to 6 hr drive to save gobs of money not only on the tank but the shipping as well.  It may cost a little in gas, but we have a reason to go to Harrisburg/Hershey PA.  Groom Expo is there over the 9-13th in Hershey and my wife is going to attend classes and get stuff for her business.  We are taking the kids with the intention of taking them to Hershey park as our "summer vacation" even though its Fall.  So I will start to use just that price in the list from here on out and just mentally add in gas for pickup.  I bet if I go it alone, knowing what i am getting, i could prolly get there and back in 8 hours, LOL.  And yes, we are dead set on getting a cube of 24x24.  The gallon choices that I have seen that do not excede the 26" height are 45 and 60.  To go bigger, from what i have seen, we would need to increase the footprint to 30x30 and that would only make it 70 gallons.  The only real benefit, aside from the larger tank volume, would be the shorter height. Tank $174 and stand $186 {thatpetplace} + CPR overflow box CS50 $76 {marineandreef} + drain hose $22 + Aqua-Lifter Dosing Pump $12 + Aqua Lifter Suction Pre-Filter (what is this thing?  didnt see a picture of it nor did it give a description of it.) $4 + Sponge (the site didnt specifically have one for the CS50) + the hang on return nozzles $?. The sponges are fairly generic. I wouldn't stress too much over that. Is it possible to have a sainless steel canopy without having any problems from the metal and water? Well, I'll compare it this way. It's possible, definitely, however, I have a stainless steel countertop on my bar. Everytime it gets wet it looks like hell, even so much as a fingerprint and it needs to all be cleaned again. Stainless steel might not rust or "stain" but little fingerprints leave marks, and if they're not cleaned, they'll basically become permanent. It would look cool, but I don't think it would be practical. I have a great friend of mine who could use his Trumpf laser and cut me and then weld together a canopy out of stainless.  All i would have to do is pay him for the materials.  He could even use the laser to etch into the stainless whatever I wanted.  He has made me a SF 49ers wall plaque out of stainless and it looks rather cool.  Plus, with stainless, it will never rot or be damaged ever.  If I cant do stainless, how hard is it to make one of these out of wood? very easy I am sooo not a carpenter either. I won't comment on the tank, since you posted below that you won't be getting that this weekend.

2x 10 gallon tanks for sump and refugium $20 + CPR Aquatics Sump Inlet Assembly w/ Filter Sock{marineandreef} $25.  I see you commented about this changing as well below so I'll leave this be for now.

Protien skimmer - Won Brothers CU-75 Protein Skimmer  $FREE + S/H.

Pumps - going to need 2.  the return from the refugium should be flowing at what 1200 GPH +/- bends in the tubing if I am doing the math right? (20 gallons per hour per gallon of tank.  Someone confirm that is the correct formula to use.  I did see that 20 is over kill and I should stick to 10 to 15 GPH.  So at 15 GPH, I would need 900 + or - the bends in the tubing.)  the other pump is for the protien skimmer, what size do I need there?  You might have skipped over this BTLD as you said you dont have the pump, however I need to know what size to get so I can go and get that pump.  Needs to be 300GPH, they're model is the SEN300, which is fine, if you can find it. But any submersible 300GPH should do.

Power heads - maybe will need 2 of them and they probably wont have to be all that powerful since the tank is only 24x24 2x $23 for $46 total {marineandreef}.  And yes, these are the Koralia powerheads.  I liked the way they looked and didnt like the looks of the others on the site.  I wonder if I can find them cheaper than $23 a piece. What size Koralias are they and are the just the Koralia standard or the Koralia Evolution?

2x Eheim Aquarium Heater 150w submersible at $24 a shot for $48 total {marineandreef}.  I did see on the packaging at the LFS for these that a 60 gallon tank only needed 150 w heater.  Conviently enough, they dont make a 75w heater to make getting 2 a breeze.  SO, will there be a problem with too much heat if I get 2x 100w heaters?  I doubt it as they both will have thermostats to turn them off and on and whatnot.  It only makes sense to get to heaters just in case one were to break.  Being in the tech support field, seeing things that never break, break, you always go with redundant pieces whenever you can.  Conviently enough, they are cheaper at $18 apiece at cheappetproducts, its a net place. If you're set on two, get two that are rated to run the tank completely on their own. Set the thermostats different. This way, if one fails, the other will kick on before your tank becomes an ice cube. If you get two smaller ones, they'll work too hard and burn out.

Lights - from fishlore . com  " A general rule of thumb for reef tanks is between 4 and 10 watts per aquarium gallon."  So that means either 240 watts up to 600 watts.  well what the heck, that is a huge range.  Since there will be coral and an anemone in the tank, I will have to favor on the high side of things, right? Yes  Do HO lights cut the recomendations in half and then metal hylide lights cut them in quarters? A little. I wouldn't throw 600watts of MH over a 40-60G tank, but T5HO's, I might go in the middle. Basically 240watts would be a good start for halides, maybe a little more/less, then a middle of about 400 or so would be good for T5HO's, if you did PC's, you'd need the full 600watss, but please, stay away from PC's. I cant find squat when it comes to decent information on the net about this.  Some places are talking about growing plants in the tank others refer to metal hylide.  I guess it really depends on who is selling what.  SO, before i go about getting set on anything, I am going to need some help on this.  Who is the resident lighting expert on this board? WangoTango and Acrylic usually have very useful advice when it comes to lights. If you're doing T5HO's, you might even want to talk to NYCBob.  The tank is 25" deep i believe so I am sure I am going to need 250 watt bulbs to make it to the bottom of the tank. That would be if you were doing a halide. T5HO's are less, so you need more of them together to reach that.   I would like to stay with T5HO new (as opposed to MH used) for now just to get a sense of what i need.  Once I have a better understanding of this, I will check into MR for the MH bulbs.  The quantity of bulbs is up in the air as well.  I am thinking 4 bulbs total, 3 normal and 1 the accent blue.  Some one correct me if that is wrong.  It would make sense to have 2x blue and 2x normal. where is the confused smiley?  There is an infinite combination of bulbs that you can do, and it varies with which brand you go with. Since youre tank is short and deep, you're probably going to need more smaller bulbs(in length).  For the cube style tank, you might want to look into a DIY LED lighting kit., just a thought.  The best advice I could give you right now would be one of these options:

1) GLO T5 kits and reflectors and you'd have to install them yourself inside the hood. These kits are basically plug and play and you can then choose whichever bulbs you want.

2) Viper 150watt MH clip on

3) Coralife Aqualight Advanced Seriese HQI MH 150watt (yes, I know it says they should go on covered tanks, etc, they can be modded, I've seen them in a million canopies lately.

4) Current Nova Extreme Pro Saltwater T5 Fixture 20" - I hate Current's bulbs, and I highly recommend changing them.

I know you're basically set on T5HO's, but wanted to throw some other options out there. Many people who start with T5's then find that they don't have enough light and upgrade, so don't rule out Halides or LED's because it might just save you money in the long run.

*****You also need a lower strength light on the refugium***** Some people use plant lights, some people use regular house bulbs. I use a PC over one tank and a clip on LED on the other, both work fine.

LR - between 75 and 120 (probably will settle on 90) of Fiji rock. I think i can get it from my LFS at $4 a pound.  The LFS close to me will sell it at $3.99 a lb if you get a bulk purchase.  I am thinking that the 90 to 100 lbs i am going to buy qualifies for that.  100 lbs is a nice round number and puts me over the 1.5 per gallon.  Sounds like the best choice i think.  The only issue is that this rock, I believe, is the Florida rock and not the Fiji rock.  The density is different, but not much else.  Opinions are welcome on this, but i am thinking that the $100 is going to sway my wife into getting the cheaper Florida rock as opposed to the Fiji rock. It honestly won't make a difference. When it comes to rock, just buy pieces that you like the looks of. Of course weight matters, but then comes the look of it. Once coraline grows on it, they all look the same. I have all Tonga Rock in my tank with the exception of a few pieces. In the beginning I could tell you which were the non-Tonga pieces, now, it's hard to tell.

Cycling - the parameters you speak of, is that the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? For cycling, yes.  I am assuming that I should wait until the ammonia is 0 and the nitrite is 0 for a week before adding the cleaners, correct?  If the tank turns green before the readings are 0, its not going to be a problem to remove the algae, right?  In all, I expect this to take about 4 weeks to occur.  Am I over estimating or under estimating? Honestly depends on your setup, but 4-6 weeks is the general consensus. I've started up tanks and in less than 24hrs had live stock in them so I'm not the best to give advice on this. (** To members of the forum: No, I do not recommend this to new hobbyists, but if you know what you're doing it can be done so please don't beat on me for saying this. EVERY one of my tanks has had fish in it in less than 48hrs so obviously I know the precautions that need to be taken)  I know it depends on the LR and LS and all the other variables like filters and what not, but is that about a good time frame to be looking at? I think you're about right, you're using cured LR, right?

LS - 3x 20 lbs bags at $20 a bag from LFS.  47 lbs in the DT and the rest, 13 lbs into the refugium. Depends on the size and shape of the refugium. Remember, you want a deeper sand bed in the refugium. I had to use 35lbs in my 20G. I didnt notice the name brand as I didnt think it would matter. Despite what some might say, it really does. I've used just about all of them. Get CaribSea. SeaChem sand sucks. There's one other, Ocean something or other that is okay, the name is slipping my mind right now.  Apparently it does so when we go back to that place this weekend to get my daughter her next fish, i will make note of the name brand.  I was going to ask if I could get a few pounds from them when I made the purchase of the sand and placed a few fish on hold.  I am sure it will be ok with them.  I plan on placing the most docile fishes on hold as they will be the first ones into the tank.  Odds are they wont even have the McCosker's and they will have to order it.  Dont start with order of fish or time between fish, I am not ready for that yet. LOL

water - API Tap Water Filter maybe  OR  some kind of RO/DI filter more likely.  Tomorrow I get to do the searches for the water quality of here and downstate to se if they are the same.  I am sure I will be doing more research on the RO/DI unit and we will probably get that anyway.  I did see a DI unit that hooks up to the faucet at the LFS and was thinking.  The RO is far more important than the DI part, correct?  It didnt look like this thing was setup to do both and it was labled as a DI unit and said nothing of RO anywhere on the packaging. I know you're still researching all this stuff, but yes the RO is the more important part.

API water test kits - $32 each for about 100 tests.  that comes to 3.5 tests per day for the first month (28 days).  I will probably but the one kit and when I get down to the last bit, look into a better test kit that would do all the water quality stuff; ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, alkalinity, as well as test for the nutriants that the corals are going to need like calcium and whatnot. API is fine, especially to start with. You could probably stick with API for the first 6 months and have no issues. I use API for ammonia, nitrite, pH (I also have a pH probe because my husband is insane) and KH (on occasion), I use SeaChem for nitrate and Salifert for alkalinity, Ca, Magnesium and Strontium (don't worry about testing for mag and strontium in the beginning, I have a lot of SPS so I need to).

I keep reading that people are setting up the sump/refugium with rubbermaid storage containers.  Is this a bad idea? Nope. I had a refugium out of this for awhile. It all depends on what's in there and the lighting/filtration that you get in it.  I would think that the 2x 10 gallon tanks would be neater and a cleaner installation than rubbermaid containers. Absolutely.  Is it becuase it is easier to cut the plastic of these containers to get the plumbing to work?  I still need atleast a diagram of how to setup the sump/refugium so I know just what I am getting myself into. I will get you this, I promise. Just keep PM'ing me so I can keep nagging my husband to find the damn USB chord for the camera.

Filtration - help!  bag of something placed in the sump I would imagine (i have seen a bag of ceramic pieces in netting like bags), somewhere there has to be some activated carbon, what else? Well, nothing while  you're cycling. Then it will be Carbon (I highly recommend ChemiPure Elite), and filter floss/padding and your skimmer. Some people go crazy and add other chemical filtrations such as phosphate remover, etc. None of this is necessary when you start. Test the water and see what your parameters are and go from there. Ex: In my sump: ChemiPure Elite, PhosLock, sponges, Protein skimmer, Carbon reactor, phosban reactor. In the Fluval, Purigen, carbon, filter floss, one sponge, nitrate removing filter floss. This is WAY more than what you're going to need.

Edit : wife found a place that sells in warren MI cheaper tanks for what we are looking for and since we are going to toledo this weekend, and we got part 1 of our tax return, looks like I will be coming home with a new tank this weekend.  WOOO freaking HOOO!

How about this for a deal?

Tank - 25x25x24 65 (?) gallon $119.95

Stand - Black designed for the tank $135

Canopy - Black designed for the tank $93 

Sump - not sure what one will fit inside the stand but the 16 gallon is $59.95 or the 22 gallon is $71.95.  They are both DIY kits that appears to only require a tube of silicone to put together.  If we go with the worst case scenario and have to take the bigger (LOL "worse case" LOL) sump the total for the tank, stand, canopy, and sump will be $419.90.  The tank comes with a 3 year warranty.  The only improvements would be to get the better glass for the front ($32 i believe) and all the crap to make it reef ready (wife has said no many times).  The stuff is in warren mi and we will be in toledo this weekend, hopefully, to pick up the wife's new grooming van for her business.  Warren is about an hour and a half away from toledo so its no biggie to go and get it.  I am pretty sure there isnt a better deal out there for me than this.  Tank, stand, canopy, and sump for $420.  Thats a deal right there. Now, will it all fit in the back of our mini van with the dogs, kids, luggage, and whatnot?  Oh thats right, we will be bringging home a 22' mini bus that has been converted into a mobile grooming salon.  No worries on space.  WOooo  I would jump all over that. Wait on the sump and refugium until you get some measurements. You can always go to PetCo before the middle of the month and get the proper size tank. If it's all glass, and not tempered glass, you can get it drilled at most LFS's to make it easier.

edit : Lighting - I found this unit and it does what I want it to do.  24" NOVA EXTREME 4X24W SLIMPAQ T5HO W/2 LUNAR LIGHTS  It has seperate circuts for the white lights as well as a seperate circut for the blue lights.  It is T5HO so the lights themselves are good quality.  Anyone have suggestions for this?  It is $173.41 for the light holder that includes a fan, the lightbulbs, reflectors, and splash guard at cheap pet products.This will work, however, Current's bulbs are crap, change them out once you start adding corals. I would suggest that you change out one of the blue lights for a white one, just to get extra lighting in there. Blue lights (aka Actinics) shouldn't really be figured into the whole "watts per gallon" calculation, as they don't do that much for the corals, they're just an accent and make everything look pretty. There are ways around this though. Some companies make bluer lights that are not actinics and benefit the corals, but look differently.

If I were to do 4 T5's on your tank here's how I would arrange it (the options are infinite, but this is just one example):

2 10K white lights

1 WavePoint Coral Wave

1 WavePoint True Actinic (420nm) or another WavePoint Coral Wave

   You could even do 3 10K's and the Coral Wave

it is far more important to protect the house than to post on here.  Rumor has it that the cape will be hit the hardest.

PHs are - Hydor Koralia Nano Evolution 240 gph Those are fine. I didn't pay that much for mine, I'm going to the LFS this weekend, let me see what my guy will sell them to me for, I know they ship in standard flat rate boxes, so it might save you some money, I'll get back to you, but I feel like the price you posted is way more than what I paid, I could be totally off.

I figured I would have to change the lights in the lightbar as they sounded too weak.  Maybe I will get 2 of them and have 8 lights over the tank, 4 white and 4 blue.  I am set on having blue lights on about an hour before the white lights.  So I do need the ability to have independant controls for the 2 light systems.  If I stay with one light bar, wouldnt 2x 200w lights melt everying they were in or on?  I can only see lights offered in 25 and 39 watts.  How in the world am I going to squeeze 16 25 watt or 10 39 watt lights over the tank to get the 400 watts needed?  Am I missing something or what?  the wavepoint light - WavePoint T5 HO Sun Wave 12000K Super Daylight - doesnt list full spectrum and is only 24 watts.  argh, i need more understanding.  Is there a post on this forum that explains the lighting better? They're might be, but usually people just ask, ask, and ask some more. The Coral Wave lights that I recommended are great for coral color and growth BUT are still blue/purple in color so you don't "shock" the tank with snapping on the white lights first thing. I'm with you on having the blue on first, even though they say it doesn't matter, I still have the blues on before and after my whtie lights.   One of the reasons that I had recommended the MH's was for this factor, cubes can be hard to light properly unless you go with halides or LED's. T5's can be done, it's just tricky.

pumps - 300 gph for the protien skimmer and then whatever i need to achieve 1200 gph on the return pump - head?  I think that was the high end of the scale.  Its 10 to 15 x tank volume?  If I get a pump thats too strong, I see I will have to set up some kind of T to have the water come back into the sump so as to not overflow the DT. Just make sure that your overflow is rated to handle more than your pump puts out, then you won't have an flooding issue. This way, you can go with the stronger pump for more water movement, and you might not need two powerheads, or you can do two powerheads and the stronger pump and have excellent water flow all the time.

heaters - i am set on 2 and I can easily get 2x 150w as opposed to 2x 100w. 60 gallons calls for 150w heaters and they are like $5 more per.  I want 2 just because of my tech support back ground.  Better to have redundancy than nothing at all.  I keep seeing both to go in the sump.  Is it because there are too many problems with one in the DT?  I am sure I can put both in the sump. They should really both go in the sump, one as the back up, one as the regular everyday heater. Some of the issues with them going in the main tank is that if the suction cup's holding them in place comes undone, they can float around and burn things.

LR would be cured and not uncured.  I cant wait that long to kill the rock, then let it grow again.  I dont mind waiting, but not that freaking long. I hear you! I can't do uncured rock. I find cured LR to have more beneficial stuff in it for the tank as well.

Tank - since we are not going to toledo this weekend, If the shipping isnt too bad from MI we will do that.  However, we will be close to lancaster PA where they have a 60 cube and stand and sump in stock that I can get for a decent price.  I will know more later.  All that we can say for now is that it will either be 60 or 65, 24 or 25 inches.

edit: just got the shipping charges for that tank, $408.00!  its almost as much as all the other stuff combined.  Looks like we will be going to lancaster PA to get the tank.  So the 24x24 tank is $165.69, the stand is $176.89, and the sump is $219 if I remeber correctly.  All that setup would need is a top.  I could get the cheap glass piece for now $40 and make my own canopy.  Argh, I am not a carpenter. Shipping is where they get you! I'm going to my LFS tonight or tomorrow, I'll look up some prices on the PH's and cube tanks. Cube tanks at larger sizes are rare so they cost a little more sometimes.

You don't have to be a carpenter! You can do it!