Flat tax? Perry?

I'll have to wait for a Democrat to break it down by the $. This is a case where I want to see what the other side has to say. We know Perry's going to spin it as best he can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW 

I do not like his idea.
discuss.
darth (cowfishrule) Tang

CFR would be proud!

big (miss those days) arn
 

Its a start

But if you kid starts talking about competing in the special Olympics it is likely to encourage you other kids to consider competing in the actual games. Like I said, it's a start.

Just like Cain's 9-9-9 plan, it's just another way to pander to the rich.  Eliminate capital gains tax?  So the CEO's will simply pay their salaries in the form of dividends and stock options.  There's a nice pay raise.  Considering middle income families making $40,000 or more only pay an effective tax rate between 13% - 16% (give of take), it'll hit them and the low income earners the hardest.  Yea, we know 47% of Americans pay no taxes now (the favorite talking point for the Republicans/Tea Party), but put it into perspective.  Who'll have a harder time paying the bills and just making ends meet - a family who brings home $35,000/year that right now pays little or no taxes, will pay $7,000 in taxes with Perry's plan, reducing their monthly income by almost $600.  A family making $1.5 million right now probably pays an effective tax rate of 23% - 29%, would pay $300K in income taxes IF they actually claim that entire $1.5 million (which I doubt would happen with no capital gains tax), would lose $25K/month in income.  Sounds alot, but considering they make $125K/month, I don't think it would put that much of a wrinkle in their lifestyle.

One interesting thing I just heard on the news is Perry says the 20% would be "optional".  If you want to continue to use the existing tax rates, you can, otherwise you can file your tax return on a post card simply by stating you're paying the 20% flat tax.  Hmmm, wonder which form those 47% who pay no taxes, and the super rich will choose?

What ever happened to cowfish he was a bacon fanatic and posted about bacon all the time LOL

on the flat tax thats a tuffy cause it would hurt some people and not others.

I think a 3 level tier or something would be better

if your income is from 0$- XXX$ your tax rate is X%

if its from $XXX-$XXXXXXX then its X%

and above $XXXXXXX then its X%

of course the higher up the more in taxes but it would not burden the poorest people in this country.

I dont like the FLAT across the board tax rate its a horrible idea but its better than whats on the books now to many people taking advantage of it.

I know people that bring in at the end of the month what would take me 2-3 months to work for all because they kept popping out babies. They get more in refund than what they even make let alone pay in to taxes. I think at the very least you should not get back more than you pay in or make for that matter.

just my soap box for taxes LOL

Mike

Quote:

Originally Posted by bionicarm 

Just like Cain's 9-9-9 plan, it's just another way to pander to the rich.  Eliminate capital gains tax?  So the CEO's will simply pay their salaries in the form of dividends and stock options.  There's a nice pay raise.  Considering middle income families making $40,000 or more only pay an effective tax rate between 13% - 16% (give of take), it'll hit them and the low income earners the hardest.  Yea, we know 47% of Americans pay no taxes now (the favorite talking point for the Republicans/Tea Party), but put it into perspective.  Who'll have a harder time paying the bills and just making ends meet - a family who brings home $35,000/year that right now pays little or no taxes, will pay $7,000 in taxes with Perry's plan, reducing their monthly income by almost $600.  A family making $1.5 million right now probably pays an effective tax rate of 23% - 29%, would pay $300K in income taxes IF they actually claim that entire $1.5 million (which I doubt would happen with no capital gains tax), would lose $25K/month in income.  Sounds alot, but considering they make $125K/month, I don't think it would put that much of a wrinkle in their lifestyle.

 

 

One interesting thing I just heard on the news is Perry says the 20% would be "optional".  If you want to continue to use the existing tax rates, you can, otherwise you can file your tax return on a post card simply by stating you're paying the 20% flat tax.  Hmmm, wonder which form those 47% who pay no taxes, and the super rich will choose?

Do you bother to read some credible sources before posting your nonsense? Simply reposting the rantings of people who would be blinded by the light if they ever left their parent's basement can make you look like a goober.

Here's a clue for ya and you don't even have to send me a quarter. Perry's tax plan includes a 12,500.00 per person exemption.

Reef (Math made easy)Raff

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelTX 

on the flat tax thats a tuffy cause it would hurt some people and not others.

 

I think a 3 level tier or something would be better

if your income is from 0$- XXX$ your tax rate is X%

if its from $XXX-$XXXXXXX then its X%

and above $XXXXXXX then its X%

of course the higher up the more in taxes but it would not burden the poorest people in this country.

 

I dont like the FLAT across the board tax rate its a horrible idea but its better than whats on the books now to many people taking advantage of it.

 

I know people that bring in at the end of the month what would take me 2-3 months to work for all because they kept popping out babies. They get more in refund than what they even make let alone pay in to taxes. I think at the very least you should not get back more than you pay in or make for that matter.

 

just my soap box for taxes LOL

Mike

Perry's plan has some good ideas, it just needs some tweaking

The good

A family of 4 with no deductions wouldn't owe taxes on the first 50K in income. Family earning 100K would have a 10% effective rate even without deductions. 200K would be 15% Seems fair to me

It keeps the big deductions, Mortgage, medical, Charity but only for people making less than 500K. Again makes more sense if you want progressiveness in the system because it removes the accounting gimmicks and loopholes in exchange for a lower rate. Makes it harder to cheat and cheaper to do your taxes both for the tax payer and the IRS

I think he missed the boat on a few things

I like the no tax on long term capital gains and short term treated as regular income part of his plan but they need to come up with with some kind of trigger so the few hundred people in the country in the same boat as Buffet can't avoid taxes by shifting all their income into capital gains.

Inheritance tax shouldn't be eliminated but instead treated as normal income to those who receive the inheritance.

Social Security payments should be taxable if people have enough other income, just like it is now.

Forget the choose your plan crap. One plan like it or not.

Hopefully someone will come up with a workable plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefraff 

Do you bother to read some credible sources before posting your nonsense? Simply reposting the rantings of people who would be blinded by the light if they ever left their parent's basement can make you look like a goober.

 

Here's a clue for ya and you don't even have to send me a quarter. Perry's tax plan includes a 12,500.00 per person exemption.

 

Reef (Math made easy)Raff

 

Credible sources for what?  What part of my statement isn't "credible"?  The part about the ultra rich getting yet another tax break?

I guess I'm confused.  If it includes a $12,500 per person standard deduction, then who exactly is paying 20% in taxes?  Based on your numbers, no one does. So where do the revenues come from?  You honestly think that the rich, even with this "trigger" you speak of, won't find inventive ways of turning any earned income into capital gains that won't be subject to this short term capital gains tax?  What's the trigger, one year, two, five?  Few hundred people?  Try a few hundred THOUSAND and counting.  Anyone making over $500K/year could stick 20% of their income into stocks and dividends, and still not feel the pain of not having those funds available for several years.  It's a glorified tax loophole for the rich. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bionicarm 

Credible sources for what?  What part of my statement isn't "credible"?  The part about the ultra rich getting yet another tax break?

 

I guess I'm confused.  If it includes a $12,500 per person standard deduction, then who exactly is paying 20% in taxes?  Based on your numbers, no one does. So where do the revenues come from?  You honestly think that the rich, even with this "trigger" you speak of, won't find inventive ways of turning any earned income into capital gains that won't be subject to this short term capital gains tax?  What's the trigger, one year, two, five?  Few hundred people?  Try a few hundred THOUSAND and counting.  Anyone making over $500K/year could stick 20% of their income into stocks and dividends, and still not feel the pain of not having those funds available for several years.  It's a glorified tax loophole for the rich. 

Everyone pays the same rate on their taxable income, hence the term flat tax. So a family of 4 earning 100K a year pays 20% on their taxable income of 50K (100K - 50K personal exemptions). A family earning 1 million a year will pay 20% or their taxable income of 950K)  So the upper middle class family earning 100K a year has an effective tax rate of 10% while the million dollar a year family of 4 has an effective tax rate of 19%.  While its fair it wont bring in enough revenue which is why I say it needs tweaking

If the government does something unusual like apply common sense a trigger will work fine. Perry's plan already taxes short term capital gains as regular income. He takes long term gains to zero. That causes a problem because those HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE who are in the position to determine their own salary structure can play the stock options game and avoid taxes. So fine. Come up with a new Alternative minimum tax that addresses that issue. Maybe just create a rule that caps your favorable treatment of long term gains at 20% of taxable income.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefraff 

Everyone pays the same rate on their taxable income, hence the term flat tax. So a family of 4 earning 100K a year pays 20% on their taxable income of 50K (100K - 50K personal exemptions). A family earning 1 million a year will pay 20% or their taxable income of 950K)  So the upper middle class family earning 100K a year has an effective tax rate of 10% while the million dollar a year family of 4 has an effective tax rate of 19%.  While its fair it wont bring in enough revenue which is why I say it needs tweaking

 

If the government does something unusual like apply common sense a trigger will work fine. Perry's plan already taxes short term capital gains as regular income. He takes long term gains to zero. That causes a problem because those HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE who are in the position to determine their own salary structure can play the stock options game and avoid taxes. So fine. Come up with a new Alternative minimum tax that addresses that issue. Maybe just create a rule that caps your favorable treatment of long term gains at 20% of taxable income.

You imply only the Top 1% - 10% can play the stock game.  I don't make anywhere near a million bucks, and I play with at minimum 20% of my earned income in the stock market, futures, and even in a 401K plan. 

So I guess the Duggers and OctoMom will get a $50,000 refund every year?  Is the Perry's way of combating abortion?  "Don't get rid of that kid.  It's worth $12,500 on your next tax return!"  Oh yeah baby!  We'll be the Procreation Capital of The World!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bionicarm 

You imply only the Top 1% - 10% can play the stock game.  I don't make anywhere near a million bucks, and I play with at minimum 20% of my earned income in the stock market, futures, and even in a 401K plan. 

 

So I guess the Duggers and OctoMom will get a $50,000 refund every year?  Is the Perry's way of combating abortion?  "Don't get rid of that kid.  It's worth $12,500 on your next tax return!"  Oh yeah baby!  We'll be the Procreation Capital of The World!

 

The Buffet situation is people taking stock options instead of salary. If someone invests their already taxed money into the market I personally don't think long or short term gains should be taxed at the regular income rate. You were already taxed on the money and you take all the risk, why should the government get a full split?

I guess you don't know how the tax system works if you think personal exemptions  can result in large refunds.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefraff 

The Buffet situation is people taking stock options instead of salary. If someone invests their already taxed money into the market I personally don't think long or short term gains should be taxed at the regular income rate. You were already taxed on the money and you take all the risk, why should the government get a full split?

 

I guess you don't know how the tax system works if you think personal exemptions  can result in large refunds.
 

 

You're saying $12,500 per person in a family?  The Duggers have what, 18 kids?  17 of them still living at home?  19 X $12,500 = $237,500 in personal exemptions.  If Pappa and Mamma Dugger make a combined income of $150,000, you'd reduce that rate by $237,500.  Nice return.  Of course, they'd have to limit the number of "people" who received the exemption. 
 

Hey, I'm fully onboard with the "no capital gains tax".  After what I'd save with that benefit, I'd end up with a zero effective tax rate. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bionicarm 

You're saying $12,500 per person in a family?  The Duggers have what, 18 kids?  17 of them still living at home?  19 X $12,500 = $237,500 in personal exemptions.  If Pappa and Mamma Dugger make a combined income of $150,000, you'd reduce that rate by $237,500.  Nice return.  Of course, they'd have to limit the number of "people" who received the exemption. 
 

 

Hey, I'm fully onboard with the "no capital gains tax".  After what I'd save with that benefit, I'd end up with a zero effective tax rate. 

 

Dude, personal exemptions are already part of the tax code. They reduce your taxable income but once you get to zero thats it. The only way you can get more back than you paid in is through refundable tax credits if they exist as part of any reform

I'd take no tax on short term capital gains. I have a lot more of those than long term but I'll take what I can get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefraff 

Dude, personal exemptions are already part of the tax code. They reduce your taxable income but once you get to zero thats it. The only way you can get more back than you paid in is through refundable tax credits if they exist as part of any reform

 

I'd take no tax on short term capital gains. I have a lot more of those than long term but I'll take what I can get.

 

Say what?  How do you think people get back these exhorbitant tax refunds?  Let's say your Gross Income is $60,000, and through payroll deductions, they took 23% out for Federal Income Tax, that's $13,800.  Let's say the taxes on $60,000 from the IRS Tax Tables is $18,000 (just a guess for the example).  So at that point, you owe $4,200 in underpaid taxes.  However, you still have deductions to reduce you gross income.  If this family had 5 kids, at $12,500 x 7 = $87,500.  They subtract that amount from the original $60,000, giving them a negative income of $27,500.  So this family should get a refund of the $13,800 in taxes they paid in through the year.  If they limited it to just four people, that's still $50,000 in personal exemptions, giving them an adjusted gross of $10,000.  So they'd be paying whatever taxes are for a gross income of $10,000, which is probably around $2,000.  So they'd still get a refund of $11,800.  With the current tax system, they probably get a $2,000 - $3,000 refund, depending on how many Schedule A deductions they have, or just taking the current standard deduction.  You also have to factor in how they filled out their W-4, which determines what percentages of taxes are taken out of the paycheck.  This plan would be great for the middle class families, depending on the number of dependents they have, but would suck for the Feds and generating revenue to pay the bills.

You casted, you set the hook, now you reel in stupid..............

I kinda laugh, do liberals realize when they attack flat taxes, or fair tax systems, they're running around defending the IRS?!?  I know it is a pipe dream, there is no way the liberals, and some leftist republicans would give up that much power, to influence the country. 

I personally like the pitch, you have 2 choices, stay the status quo, or pay 20% flat, I wonder how many americans would choose, the taxes they pay now....