Is experimentation a part of this hobby?

[spanko]

There was a small discussion about this in another thread. I would like to open up this one to see what people think about trying different things. Maybe even get some opinion on what is experimentation and what constitutes outright abuse of generally accepted principals.

So I will start the discussion with a couple of things.
The addition of an angelfish to a reef is an experiment to me. Generally accepted knowledge says that you are putting your coral in jeopardy of being nipped at or eaten. However you will always come across people that have succeeded in having an angel be well a perfect angel with their coral, and for them the experiment worked.

The one that started the thoughts was someone that wanted to add two dwarf angels to a 55 gallon tank. Generally people will say no but I have seen some that have done so successfully.

Imagine the first people to succeed at a nano tank, when generally a 55 gallon was though to be the smallest tank you could do saltwater in.

So what are your thoughts on experimentation please discuss.
__________________
Henry

[SpiderWoman]

I can't afford to experiment in this hobby. Our current systems are way too expensive for that stuff.

[spanko]

That is a good point. Are you saying that you have tried to follow the book on things you have done with your tank and have not really gone outside accepted practice? Or have there been some less expensive things you have tried.

[Bang Guy]

I believe that experimentation is what has brought this hobby up to the level it is today so I'm a proponent of experimentation.

However, repeating someone else's failed methods isn't experimentation, it's just a waste of life and an excercise in frustration.

[SpiderWoman]

I've actually ditched the books after making some major mistakes with our first tank which was a 55g. We started out by reading books and reading some more books and not reading any boards.

Since then I've joined SWF board and also joined our local reef club. The information I've received from especially our local club is invaluable. Before making any major purchases I would ask tons of questions, ask how others are doing a similar setup etc. and I really feel that we've made some really good choices with our existing tanks (75 and 150).

I won't even list the mistakes we made with the first tank, but I'll just say that it was a fairly expensive lesson to learn.

[spanko]

Thank you bang. I agree that experimentation is what has helped evolve this hobby and will continue to do so.
Spiderwomen I think that we have all made the mistakes you talk about. But are those just newbie mistakes? I think that there is a difference between not knowing and experimtenting with new ideas.

[SpiderWoman]

Originally Posted by spanko

Spiderwomen I think that we have all made the mistakes you talk about. But are those just newbie mistakes? I think that there is a difference between not knowing and experimtenting with new ideas.

Definitely newbie mistakes and not knowing enough. I'm sure that with our next tank or even with the existing ones I will start experimenting with things like vodka dosing when I have enough information to do the dive.

[nYgel]

I'm all for experimenting. These expirements should be made with proper care obviously. Like myself having a scooter dragonet in a 30g for about 2 years before my tank crashed. That was more of an experiment than a 'newbie mistake'. I knew what I was getting myself into an was aware of the potentail dangers. But I kept it alive under proper care.

But why do we experiment? is it trying to advance the hobby or a desire to do things that most wouldn't?

[spanko]

Originally Posted by nYgel

But why do we experiment? is it trying to advance the hobby or a desire to do things that most wouldn't?

And do the two really go hand in hand even if not a conscious effort in the beginning?

[SnakeBlitz33]

I believe in experimenting. I think that without experimentation, we couldn't advance our hobby. And like Bang Guy said, I don't condone anyone who repeats others failed experiments.

I have experimented with all sorts of things ranging from deep sand beds, shallow sand beds, bare bottom, macro algaes (including mangroves), different pieces of equipment, DIY protein skimmers, filters, de-gassers, fluidized bed filters and probably everything in between.

I don't share most of my experiments because no one around me (besides you guys) wants to hear.

[reefkprZ]

it depends on your level of involment in the hobby.

if you just want to keep a few fish or corals and dont want to go further than that that is an acceptable route.

for others expirimentation is a HUGE part of this hobby pushing towards a greater understanding of the creatures we try to keep, and the environments we try to mimic.

I think without expirimentation there will be very little advance. expirimentation has to come in somewhere just not nescisarily for everybody.

[Coral Keeper]

I'm going to try a Flame Angel in my SPS reef with clams. I've made TONS and TONS of mistakes in the beginning, like putting a powder brown tang in a 30 gallon tank. It died a week later.

[SnakeBlitz33]

Oh yeah, sure we've all made mistakes... That goes without saying.

I wish more people would experiment and get involved in the hobby rather then passively wait for others to come up with new ideas.

Though, passive people generally pay for aquarium maintenance. :D

[GeoJ]

I have found that knowing what is true and what is only conjecture is not possible. You either faithfully believe or you test for truth… Now I tend to test….

[Cranberry]

I feel I've done my share of experimentation in the seahorse world. My experimentation was with medications followed by necropsies.

[mgatdog]

I say it's been experimentation for me. What gets me is when people tell you that this fish or coral is easy to keep . It usually dies and the stuff to stay away from I have no problem with . What gives?

[COWFISHRULE]

its how we learn. lots of people have some un-orthodox methods and things that they do to their tanks, and have great success.

for some its strict husbandry, and for some, its very lax husbandry. what ever works for you is fine.

[mgatdog]

Example, everyone said stay away from clams if you don't have the right lighting.Stay from blue hippo tangs they're ich magnets. I've had good luck with them . Knock on wood.

[nYgel]

I kept a scooter dragonet in a 30 gallons for about 2 years prior to my tank having a mini-crash. yet for some reason I can never get a clown to live more than two months. Who knows?

[hlcroghan]

I think experimentation is vital for anything to acheive better results. I think if it is something is obvious going to fail it should not be tried without having a seriously new way of doing it. Like for instance, dragonets in small tanks like a 10 gallon. I have seen the thread on here where the guy did it and he had a setup to breed the copepods separately to increase the store of the food. I believe the first fish died but the second did well. That is an experiment.

Then there is Slack ( I am just using an example, not purposely flaming him), who overstocks his tanks regularly with aggressive fish. Everyone knows that it is a bad idea but he continues to do it anyway. It is his business though. That is not an experiment, that is foolhardy. He continually has deaths in his tanks. There is no new way of doing anything. It is the same way, not an improvement.

[Cranberry]

Very good point.

[Tizzo]

I think you are all confusing "experimenting" with research.

Experimenting can have changing result for every hobbiest so it is and always will be, unreliable.

3 mixed clowns in your tank is experimenting, may work may not.

10 similiar tanks with 3 mixed clowns to watch the results of each, is research. Most likely, most of those clowns will die. That's the information that avances our hobby.

Experimenting does nothing in the way of producing facts.

And facts are what we rely on to differentiate between a responsible hobbiest and an idiot.

Lots of people will say they kept 3 clowns, but a lot of people who had them die, will keep their mouth shut. No conclusions can be drawn by asking only for the success stories.

I have a few issues I wish I could change, for example I wanna experiment and put my encrusting monti next to acro's and hope the acros can ward it off, but I'm not gonna "experiment" with that. If I wanted to "research" it,. I'd set up another tank...

experimenting "can be" irresponsible.

[CedarReef]

I definitely believe in experimentation. But then again, you have to think if you're experimenting or just don't know what could possibly happen. I don't think everyone should experiment, but it could help a lot. Years ago keeping an anthias was unheard of, but now it's a common fish. This may be the case with moorish idols some time. Experiments are good if they're not just plain reckless.

[spanko]

Originally Posted by Tizzo

I think you are all confusing "experimenting" with research.

Experimenting can have changing result for every hobbiest so it is and always will be, unreliable.

3 mixed clowns in your tank is experimenting, may work may not.

10 similiar tanks with 3 mixed clowns to watch the results of each, is research. Most likely, most of those clowns will die. That's the information that avances our hobby.

Experimenting does nothing in the way of producing facts.

And facts are what we rely on to differentiate between a responsible hobbiest and an idiot.

Lots of people will say they kept 3 clowns, but a lot of people who had them die, will keep their mouth shut. No conclusions can be drawn by asking only for the success stories.

I have a few issues I wish I could change, for example I wanna experiment and put my encrusting monti next to acro's and hope the acros can ward it off, but I'm not gonna "experiment" with that. If I wanted to "research" it,. I'd set up another tank...

experimenting "can be" irresponsible.

I wonder when, or really how much, conventional wisdom, which there seems to be a lot of, then actually becomes fact???

[Darthtang AW]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy

I believe that experimentation is what has brought this hobby up to the level it is today so I'm a proponent of experimentation.

However, repeating someone else's failed methods isn't experimentation, it's just a waste of life and an excercise in frustration.

I disagree to a point.

I have kept seahorses in the past. Also kept tangs. everything I read and was told these two species can not co habitate due to appetite and territorial reasons, factor in aggression and such and it just could not be done.

In a typical seahorse aquarium I would agree with that. However I experimented with my 150 gallon aquarium mixing tangs and seahorses. did this successfully for 4 years before my seahorses passed on. I repeated the same situation afterwards before my house move.

So the rules that people say do not work only hold truth under certain circumstances. Under my sircumstance they did not....with repeated success. now had I listened to tried and true rule, no one would know it is possible.


any seahorse keepers interested in how to do this, I will give exact details on what I did to be successful.

[reefkprZ]

Originally Posted by Tizzo

I think you are all confusing "experimenting" with research.

.

An expiriment is a part of scientific research, while research can be soley defined as looking up information that some one else did the expiriments to provide.

there definatly is a difference in a random expiriment, a scientific expiriment and a full blown study. not every expiriment need multpile set ups (controlls), to be a solid scientific expiriment it should but, you can conduct an expiriment with out a controll, such as "can cyano grow in a bucket with out light?" (I did this one) it was only lit by whatever light could filter through the sides and lid of a 5 gallon bucket in 24hours there was signifigant growth. what does that tell us? cyano can grow very well in low light. thats an expiriment. not official no controlls but an expiriment, it keys me into the fact that cyano doesnt need TONS of light. so to extrapolate cutting back your light hours may not be the key to defeating it, it may help but probably isnt going to be a major factor, look for other methods.

[Tizzo]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ

An expiriment is a part of scientific research, while research can be soley defined as looking up information that some one else did the expiriments to provide.

there definatly is a difference in a random expiriment, a scientific expiriment and a full blown study. not every expiriment need multpile set ups (controlls), to be a solid scientific expiriment it should but, you can conduct an expiriment with out a controll, such as "can cyano grow in a bucket with out light?" (I did this one) it was only lit by whatever light could filter through the sides and lid of a 5 gallon bucket in 24hours there was signifigant growth. what does that tell us? cyano can grow very well in low light. thats an expiriment. not official no controlls but an expiriment, it keys me into the fact that cyano doesnt need TONS of light. so to extrapolate cutting back your light hours may not be the key to defeating it, it may help but probably isnt going to be a major factor, look for other methods.

Well, reef, if you can grow cyano in a bucket at 5 times in a row, then to me, that's research.Research does use experimentation, but it is to comclude that the same results can be "created" and "predicted" each time. Random experimantation is usually reckless IMO.

Adding the cleaner wrasses has already been researched and the conclusions are accepted by most, but some people still wanna experiment...

Blue linkias in nanos.
sharks in reefs.
multiple dwarf angels.
clown tangs in a 55.

These are things that have al;ready been experimented upon and yet people still wanna try to "improve" the process and beat the system...

Experimenting just to see if you can serves absolutely no purpose in the grand scheme of things...

[reefkprZ]

Originally Posted by Tizzo

Random experimantation is usually reckless IMO.

Adding the cleaner wrasses has already been researched and the conclusions are accepted by most, but some people still wanna experiment...

Blue linkias in nanos.
sharks in reefs.
multiple dwarf angels.
clown tangs in a 55.

These are things that have al;ready been experimented upon and yet people still wanna try to "improve" the process and beat the system...

the expririmenting your describing here as irresponsible, isnt really expirimenting, some people would claim its an expiriement but some one once said, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results".

I'll trythe cyano thing again and see if the results are the same

[bruner54]

i believe experimenting is good and thats how you figure things out and i think if its just done once its not necessarily accurate it should probably be done a couple times to get a more accurate answer cause there could be a lot of things that affect the experiment.

[spanko]

"Experimenting just to see if you can serves absolutely no purpose in the grand scheme of things..."

Would then the accepted still be:

The world is flat
Gravity undiscovered
Kilimanjaro unconquered
etc.etc.etc.

I think there are many "truisms, standards, etc." that have been changed because people were not ready to accept the norm.

[1journeyman]

Experimenting is fine provided you have a back up plan. Otherwise it is irresponsible aquarium keeping.

We are dealing with living creatures. Too often people do something they know can't be done and use the excue that they are "experimenting"...

[Tomato Clown]

My experimentation is limited to expendable items that I don't utilize in my tank. For instance my latest experiment is nothing more than basic. Live rock outside with a PH, basic water changes using old DT water (no fresh top-off's) and just true natural lighting. (I did say BASIC)

[TexasMetal]

Experimentation is absolutely necessary. If it isn't broke, don't fix it... but by all means improve on it. Unfortunately though a lot of people take liberty in being ignorant and doing ignorant things regardless of the good information and solutions out there that were developed through previous experimentation.

Research beforehand is absolutely necessary before conducting an experiment. It seems there are a few folks out there that don't make the connection there.

Documenting the good and bad so that others can learn... is a big problem. Seems all too often people ask questions because their tank is crashing or their livestock is dying and then they never follow through to let others know what did or didn't work. There really aren't too many things left unexplored in the hobby but it's frustrating when threads of interest die off unresolved. Being interested in cephalopods I get this a lot. I want more documentation on raising planktonic hatchlings but people only post things like "Help! My octopus laid eggs!" and then they never document what method they tried. At least then I'd know what NOT to waste my time doing.

[TexasMetal]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman

Experimenting is fine provided you have a back up plan. Otherwise it is irresponsible aquarium keeping.

We are dealing with living creatures. Too often people do something they know can't be done and use the excue that they are "experimenting"...

Yup. However one could argue that ethics and pure scientific research aren't always feasible together.

[Jerthunter]

Generally my answer would be yes, experimentation is a vital part of this hobby. But regarding the original example of adding an angel to a reef. I would not consider this to be a useful form of experimentation since there is already fairly in depth knowledge about what will happen.

On one hand, if the angel eats the coral, as anticipated... well you're out some coral.

On the other hand, if he doesn't eat the coral, well you have an angel in a reef, which is nice but the information doesn't really help the rest of the hobby, because next time someone wants to add an angel it could still end up eatting the coral...

So experimentation, in the sense that you're trying new things and therefore learning more, is good.

Experimentation, such as trying something that has been tried over and over again because you're hoping to be lucky, is probably not the best idea.

[crimzy]

Unfortunately, "experimentation" has been used in this hobby as an excuse for irresponsibility, impatience and unethical fish keeping. Most people who claim to be experimenting are not scientists (probably couldn't even spell "scientist"). They are usually young, stubborn people who want what they want regardless of the amount of fish sacrificed or living in unsuitable environments.

You don't see many people experimenting that they want to try to breed 2 hippos in their own 300 gallon tank. The experimenting we see here is always that someone thinks that they will "test" whether a panther grouper can live in a 50 gallon tank, whether a blue hippo can live in a 20 gallon or whether they can fully stock their tank without a cycle. This is not experimentation, it's a cop out.

[Bang Guy]

I've killed thousands of Mandarin larvae trying to figure out why a fat, active larval Dragonet suddenly stops living just before metamorphosis.

[MrMoses]

Originally Posted by spanko

There was a small discussion about this in another thread. I would like to open up this one to see what people think about trying different things. Maybe even get some opinion on what is experimentation and what constitutes outright abuse of generally accepted principals.

So I will start the discussion with a couple of things.
The addition of an angelfish to a reef is an experiment to me. Generally accepted knowledge says that you are putting your coral in jeopardy of being nipped at or eaten. However you will always come across people that have succeeded in having an angel be well a perfect angel with their coral, and for them the experiment worked.

The one that started the thoughts was someone that wanted to add two dwarf angels to a 55 gallon tank. Generally people will say no but I have seen some that have done so successfully.

Imagine the first people to succeed at a nano tank, when generally a 55 gallon was though to be the smallest tank you could do saltwater in.

So what are your thoughts on experimentation please discuss.
__________________
Henry

I think something important to keep in mind is just because the fish are surviving does not mean that they are thriving and happy. Humans can live in ridiculous conditions and appear fine however they are unhappy.

[PonieGirl]

Bottom line is that it's an experiment when I put my feet on the floor each morning.
There are always a certain set of guidelines for any one project. It is easy to tell which folks are trying to care for their animals and which are not. And I believe that responsible aquarists will keep the animals needs foremost in mind. Most often that means knowing about the creature. Not the scientific terms, but the needs.
The more irresponsible hobbyists will tire of the project.
Just human nature.

[dse]

catch a man a fish and he will eat for a night teach a man to fish and he will eat evrey night. this is a major saying. wich is saying learn and adapt to what ever it is you do/doing.
i try everything so in future the next time i can relook and go nope not doing it that weay or yes that worked well lets try that again.
right now my wife is going on her own experiment with a cleaner wrasse and an angel lucky for us that it was sand grains on her (we thought white spot)

[VinnyRaptor]

experimentation is a "good" thing. lets face it we all lose livestock or have lost livestock in the past. i currently have a powder brown and a yellow tang in a 95 gallon along with 3 different species of clowns ( 1 each ) a mandarin goby and and algae eating blenny. about 80 lbs of LR and a carpet anemone under reg flor. lights. has been 6 months and water is perfect, nobody fights everyone takes frozen food including the tangs get frozen, flake, seaweed and algae. the anemone has grown significantly and gets a tigershrimp twice a month.

Originally Posted by spanko

There was a small discussion about this in another thread. I would like to open up this one to see what people think about trying different things. Maybe even get some opinion on what is experimentation and what constitutes outright abuse of generally accepted principals.

So I will start the discussion with a couple of things.
The addition of an angelfish to a reef is an experiment to me. Generally accepted knowledge says that you are putting your coral in jeopardy of being nipped at or eaten. However you will always come across people that have succeeded in having an angel be well a perfect angel with their coral, and for them the experiment worked.

The one that started the thoughts was someone that wanted to add two dwarf angels to a 55 gallon tank. Generally people will say no but I have seen some that have done so successfully.

Imagine the first people to succeed at a nano tank, when generally a 55 gallon was though to be the smallest tank you could do saltwater in.

So what are your thoughts on experimentation please discuss.
__________________
Henry

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor

experimentation is a "good" thing. lets face it we all lose livestock or have lost livestock in the past. i currently have a powder brown and a yellow tang in a 95 gallon along with 3 different species of clowns ( 1 each ) a mandarin goby and and algae eating blenny. about 80 lbs of LR and a carpet anemone under reg flor. lights. has been 6 months and water is perfect, nobody fights everyone takes frozen food including the tangs get frozen, flake, seaweed and algae. the anemone has grown significantly and gets a tigershrimp twice a month.

See, that's not "experimenting"...

What you are saying is try what usually doesn't wok. If the fish die it's a failed experiment.

What "experiment" are you performing? Can Tangs live together is crowded conditions? We know sometimes they can.

Can anemones survive under sub-par lighting? We know some do.

Can Clowns live together in a big enough tank? We know they can.

Many successful hobbyists learn from the failure of others, stock their tanks appropriately, and have minimal die off.

[reefkprZ]

Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor

experimentation is a "good" thing. lets face it we all lose livestock or have lost livestock in the past. i currently have a powder brown and a yellow tang in a 95 gallon along with 3 different species of clowns ( 1 each ) a mandarin goby and and algae eating blenny. about 80 lbs of LR and a carpet anemone under reg flor. lights. has been 6 months and water is perfect, nobody fights everyone takes frozen food including the tangs get frozen, flake, seaweed and algae. the anemone has grown significantly and gets a tigershrimp twice a month.

thats not expiriementing thats gambleing, your gambleing that its going to work for you where it hasnt for others. there is no conclusion to be drawn from that statement.

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ

thats not expiriementing thats gambleing, your gambleing that its going to work for you where it hasnt for others. there is no conclusion to be drawn from that statement.

Exactly. Nor is there any test, constant, or conclusion other than "oops, it died".

So, no.. that is not a "good" thing.

[spanko]

Okay here is a thread where the person has bought a large tank, has he says 20 years experience, is willing to lay out the dough needed, has studied the husbandry required and wants to keep a pair of Moorish Idols.

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=336312

Open for discussion is this an experiment?

[stdreb27]

That is a loaded question.

Originally Posted by Cranberry

I feel I've done my share of experimentation in the seahorse world. My experimentation was with medications followed by necropsies.

I'm guessing they didn't do well with medication.



I kept 2 dwarf angels in a 58 gallon for a good while, (till Ike took em out). Never had any problems, wouldn't have known it could be an issue watching the fish.
Personally, I don't think it is an issue of experiementation, rather of responsibility. I don't see how the average Joe blow hobbiest (like me) is going to make some break through discovery. i'm not proof that you can keep 2 dwarf angels in a tank. I just got two angels that happened to get a long.

I for one don't have the $$ to be playing with stuff that isn't suppose to work.

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by spanko

Okay here is a thread where the person has bought a large tank, has he says 20 years experience, is willing to lay out the dough needed, has studied the husbandry required and wants to keep a pair of Moorish Idols.

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=336312

Open for discussion is this an experiment?

I specifically looked down here to see if anyone had menioned Crimzy's idols.
Really people, there's not much glory in what we do.

[crimzy]

Let's call things what they are here. Any "experimentation" in this hobby is generally secondary. Primary concerns for taking chances is pure selfishness. I am no better. I am getting my idols simply because I've always wanted them. I would love to have them and can't wait to keep them. I am not getting them to further the hobby. But the reality is that keeping all fish has a selfish aspect to it. The best that we can hope for is that hobbiests will do their best, keep the specimens in appropriate systems, with appropriate tankmates, perform responsible maintenance and feed responsibly. If the hobbiest does all this then we give the fish the best chance of survival DESPITE the fact that we are keeping them in relatively small, glass boxes. Experimentation is purely incidental in this hobby, JMO.

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by crimzy

Let's call things what they are here. Any "experimentation" in this hobby is generally secondary. Primary concerns for taking chances is pure selfishness. I am no better. I am getting my idols simply because I've always wanted them. I would love to have them and can't wait to keep them. I am not getting them to further the hobby. But the reality is that keeping all fish has a selfish aspect to it. The best that we can hope for is that hobbiests will do their best, keep the specimens in appropriate systems, with appropriate tankmates, perform responsible maintenance and feed responsibly. If the hobbiest does all this then we give the fish the best chance of survival DESPITE the fact that we are keeping them in relatively small, glass boxes. Experimentation is purely incidental in this hobby, JMO.

Well put.

[spanko]

Originally Posted by crimzy

Let's call things what they are here. Any "experimentation" in this hobby is generally secondary. Primary concerns for taking chances is pure selfishness. I am no better. I am getting my idols simply because I've always wanted them. I would love to have them and can't wait to keep them. I am not getting them to further the hobby. But the reality is that keeping all fish has a selfish aspect to it. The best that we can hope for is that hobbiests will do their best, keep the specimens in appropriate systems, with appropriate tankmates, perform responsible maintenance and feed responsibly. If the hobbiest does all this then we give the fish the best chance of survival DESPITE the fact that we are keeping them in relatively small, glass boxes. Experimentation is purely incidental in this hobby, JMO.

This to me is the most well thought out, and well put answer in this thread. It speaks to our own need to have nice things but also to the need to do the best we can to provide for them. I personally believe that what Crimzy is doing is an experiment. An experiment to develop what his own strengths and weaknesses are in the husbandry of keeping the livestock he has chosen. An experiment in his own ability to educate himself on the needs of the Idols and to put what he has learned into practice. Bravo Crimzy for having the patience to wait until you have what you consider to be the best equipment before trying what is considered something outside the reach of most aquarist rather than follow your desires with what would have certainly been substandard in terms of habitat.