I just set up a new tank and not having much luck.

[lb68]

I have a new 30 gallon with an aquatop CF400 cannister / UV filter. I used live sand and nutrisea water with a live rock. Everything has been testing great except for PH at 7.8, but ammonia, nitrate and nitrites are all at 0 ppm. SG is 1.025 and temp is 76-77 F. I ultimately intend to use it for a seahorse tank once it's stabilized but decided to try a damsel for a few weeks to make sure everything was fine. The first damsel died in 3 days so I waited a few days, retested the water and got a 2nd damsel. The damsel did great on day 1 but by day 2 he is breathing rapidly and seems very stressed. Could the PH be causing the stress? I just added a marine water buffer. I also thought about oxygenation but the canister filter is pretty strong and I can see good flow in the water. I have the outflow purposely pointing up toward the surface and one section straight down to avoid too much current since I don't think seahorses like a lot of current. Help...

 

[snakeblitz33]

If you have glass tops, take them off.

The outflow of the canister should be pointed across the top of the water for better oxygenation.

Stop adding pH buffers, they don't fix pH problems, they stabilize alkalinity.

Did you properly cycle the tank?

 

[lb68]

Ok. Removing glass top, readjusting the outflow to flow across the top and not adding any more buffer.

Admittedly I didn't cycle the tank for weeks but everyone I spoke to at the LFS said the live sea water, sand and rock should make it safe for damsels after tests were normal.

What would you recommend to get this tank stabilized?

 

[seecrabrun]

I don't trust the local fish stores for advice anymore.

If your rock was not only live but cured and kept in a system with a good bioload, and same for the sand, then it would be ok. It's more likely the live rock has been in a big bucket or tank with only other live rock and neglected for the most part, the sand is bagged with minimal bacteria, and the water is just water.

Any time you add more bioload to the system than what the system is used to handling, you start another cycle. It may be a mini cycle, or it may be a full cycle. That's why it is important to cycle it all the way through using an additive like flake food or a raw shrimp to force the cycle to strengthen. Then go slowly as you add fish so you don't overwhelm it.

 

[lb68]

Thanks! Makes sense. Every time I've tested the water, its 0 PPM across the board so how can I tell when the tank is fully cycled? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

[seecrabrun]

If it has always been 0, it never cycled at all. You actually want to see the numbers shoot up, and then fall back down.

You want to see the ammonia go up, then go down and the nitrite go up, then the nitrite go down and finally the nitrate go up. When you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and an actual nitrate reading is when your tank went through a full cycle. You would then do a water change to bring the nitrates down. That's when you could add a damsel.

Be warned unless you actually want a damsel as a pet, you shouldn't put one in your tank. They shouldn't be used as a tool and they are pretty aggressive fish and can make it difficult to add fish later. I personally am a damsel lover, so I don't see why everyone hates them so much lol

 

[lb68]

Agree. Damsels are indeed beautiful. That is very helpful. Thanks. Will look for the spike.

 

[seecrabrun]

You can ghost feed the tank, feed it as much as you would if there was a fish in it each day. Or you can put an uncooked shrimp in it to help.
That's if the tank is empty, not sure if you still have your second damsel or not.

 

[pegasus]

Even if the tank wasn't cycled, damsel are very tough fish. I think it's strange that one died in 3 days in a 30 gallon tank with good parameters. I wouldn't think one tiny damsel could pollute 30 gallons enough in 3 days to kill it... but I could be wrong. If overfeeding was involved, there should have been a spike of something. Water tested good and second damsel is not doing good on day 2? Something's not adding up...

 

[seecrabrun]

True. Even in my first tank when I put a damsel in too soon and ammonia and salinity were off the charts... he still survived until I brought them down. Then he kicked the bucket.

Lesson: don't trust test strips and don't top off your tank with salt water, ha!

Anyway. When I have bought damsels from the store I've bought 3 at a time and in the first 24 hours one always dies. I've never figured out the cause. I've lost 3 damsels. The first obviously had something to do with shock after I brought everything back to normal, even though I did it very slowly. He also was a very large damsel in a very small tank. The other 2 died within 24 hours of bringing them home and no idea on why either. The other ones in the same exact batch lived fine.

 

[flower]

True. Even in my first tank when I put a damsel in too soon and ammonia and salinity were off the charts... he still survived until I brought them down. Then he kicked the bucket.

Lesson: don't trust test strips and don't top off your tank with salt water, ha!

Anyway. When I have bought damsels from the store I've bought 3 at a time and in the first 24 hours one always dies. I've never figured out the cause. I've lost 3 damsels. The first obviously had something to do with shock after I brought everything back to normal, even though I did it very slowly. He also was a very large damsel in a very small tank. The other 2 died within 24 hours of bringing them home and no idea on why either. The other ones in the same exact batch lived fine.

LOL...I just wanted to comment on the 3 damsel issue. They are evil little fish, they kill each other off. They also will kill anything in the tank less timid then themselves. They have also been known once mature, to bite people drawing blood.

That being said, a chunk of raw shrimp is just fine to cycle a tank, ghost feeding or even pure ammonia to kick start things... I see no reason to torture fish to kick start a cycle, and I want to point out that whatever you put into the tank dictates what can be added later, and a damsel with it's temperament is not a good choice.


lb68, a seahorse tank should be set up with lots of hitches, not the regular way a SW tank is usually set up. The power heads should be the type that a seahorse can't get it's tail cut up if it tries to hitch to it. Make sure to purchase captive bred horses feeding on frozen Mysis, they are as easy to care for as regular fish, but they need tank mates suitable to live with them...and damsels are not anywhere near what you need to be putting in a tank you eventually want to add seahorses to.

We have a great seahorse and pipefish section, I'm a seahorse keeper myself, and we will be glad to help you on how to set things up. You just need to get some basics down, and first things first is the cycle. Read up 101 ways of getting started, buy a good beginners book, and I do believe Snakebite has some info on getting things started too. Get rid of the damsels, or if they are gone DO NOT GET ANOTHER ONE.

 

[honu808]

Acclimation may be the problem too with the damsels. You have to make sure the lfs water and your water match. Slow drip method is best and never add the lfs bag water to your system.
Many times lfs keep their s.g. Low to save on salt and most of us keep our tanks higher at 1.024-1.026 etc. shock is a big time killer when adding new fish.
The first 3fish i bought were green chromis. One died on the way home, 1 dissapeared 3 days later and i still have 1.

 

[seecrabrun]

LOL...I just wanted to comment on the 3 damsel issue. They are evil little fish, they kill each other off. They also will kill anything in the tank less timid then themselves. They have also been known once mature, to bite people drawing blood.

Yes they are aggressive fish that should be brought in with the same consideration as triggers, puffers, and eels, despite the fact they are tiny in comparison.

You wouldn't want to QT a bunch of triggers in the same tank. Mine didn't die from aggression.

Which brings another question to the thread. Did you quarantine either of the damsels? I would assume not, but it is a very good idea to do so to make sure you don't bring ich or other disease into your tank.

 

[lb68]

1 damsel gone and 1 left. Like flower said - they are evil little fish. The one that is doing well finished the other one off. -(

Just so you know, I wasn't planning on keeping the damsels in the same tank with the seahorses. I was hoping to start a smaller tank for my daughter and let her keep them in her room once this tank was ready. My profile pic is my actual tank so hoping that this coral will make suitable hitching posts.

After reading some of the threads on acclimation and as honu808 mentioned I think the damsels came from an sg of 1.020-1.023 and mine is at 1.025. The guy at the LFS didn't mention this to me when I got them but when I went back and explained the issue, he suggested bringing the salt down to 1.021-1.023 to match the water at the LFS. What are your thoughts on this? He also mentioned that lowering the sg would help with parasites long term.

I will definitely use a drip line to acclimate from now on. I think that was probably part of the issue. I probably should have mixed the water slower.

Lots of lessons learned so thank you all very much.

How often should I be checking for nitrite spikes? Daily / every other day? How long does a typical cycle take? I know it probably varies greatly depending on all the variables. Just want to have an idea of what to expect.

 

[lb68]

Yes they are aggressive fish that should be brought in with the same consideration as triggers, puffers, and eels, despite the fact they are tiny in comparison.

You wouldn't want to QT a bunch of triggers in the same tank. Mine didn't die from aggression.

Which brings another question to the thread. Did you quarantine either of the damsels? I would assume not, but it is a very good idea to do so to make sure you don't bring ich or other disease into your tank.

I don't have a QT tank but may consider setting one up after I get through this cycle...wow. I do have a UV light on the canister filter but haven't turned it on yet to let the bacteria grow. Or should I turn it on to take care of any disease that might have been introduced??

 

[seecrabrun]

A typical cycle takes about 3-6 weeks depending on the system and conditions.

Mine fully cycled in 3 weeks the first time, if I remember correctly. I then moved all of it to a larger tank and started again and that one took 5 weeks. Different sand and rock suppliers and I didn't do the raw shrimp in the second one.

 

[flower]

1 damsel gone and 1 left. Like flower said - they are evil little fish. The one that is doing well finished the other one off. -(

Just so you know, I wasn't planning on keeping the damsels in the same tank with the seahorses. I was hoping to start a smaller tank for my daughter and let her keep them in her room once this tank was ready. My profile pic is my actual tank so hoping that this coral will make suitable hitching posts.

After reading some of the threads on acclimation and as honu808 mentioned I think the damsels came from an sg of 1.020-1.023 and mine is at 1.025. The guy at the LFS didn't mention this to me when I got them but when I went back and explained the issue, he suggested bringing the salt down to 1.021-1.023 to match the water at the LFS. What are your thoughts on this? He also mentioned that lowering the sg would help with parasites long term.

I will definitely use a drip line to acclimate from now on. I think that was probably part of the issue. I probably should have mixed the water slower.

Lots of lessons learned so thank you all very much.

How often should I be checking for nitrite spikes? Daily / every other day? How long does a typical cycle take? I know it probably varies greatly depending on all the variables. Just want to have an idea of what to expect.

Everyone has their own methods...this is mine: IMO Time is nothing, only your test kits can tell you when the cycle is complete, and what stage it's in. Use drop tests, not strip. Once you see a spike of at least 0.5 to 1.0, test every other day or so looking for nitrites...once nitrites drop to 0, check for nitrates, if nitrates are above 10, do a small water change, and retest all three one more time after waiting a week...if ammonia and nitrite are still 0, then your tank is cycled.

It doesn't matter what the SG was from the store...that's why you acclimate the fish, you are getting it used to YOUR tanks parameters, instead if the one they came from. I float the bag, open it up and remove some water, and replace it with a little from my tank...I do this until there is mostly my water in the bag, then I release the fish. I have never lost a fish doing this. Do make sure to attach the bag somehow...I use clips. Otherwise the bag may sink, and the fish not have enough time to adjust (I lost an Anthias fish that way once). usually 45 minutes to 1 hour is plenty of time, unless it's a sea-star or shrimp...they need extra care and time, because they are more sensitive to changes.

When setting up a seahorse tank: you don't want to use live rock or reef sand. Use dry dead rock, many hitchhikers are very bad to keep with seahorses, and they are such messy eaters that the critters in live rock (bristle worms for example) will explode in population, and they sting seahorses, I have lost 4 of my Kuda horses to bristle worms because of live rock.

 

[seecrabrun]

Dry rock is also easy to purchase and easy to seed. Most of my rock is dry reef saver rock. I have bought it from aquacave.com and reefcleaners.org and been happy with both. The pieces from reef cleaners were lighter with more holes than the ones from aquacave, but both lighter and with more holes than the fiji live rock I bought.

 

[pegasus]

It seems to be the general consensus that three damsels just can't get along. My first damsel purchase was three yellowtails. It didn't take long until I was down to one. That was over two years ago, and the little devil is still going strong. I think they should be in the same group as tangs and angels... one per tank. Apparently, 125 gallon tanks aren't large enough for them to co-exist...

 

[flower]

Dry rock is also easy to purchase and easy to seed. Most of my rock is dry reef saver rock. I have bought it from aquacave.com and reefcleaners.org and been happy with both. The pieces from reef cleaners were lighter with more holes than the ones from aquacave, but both lighter and with more holes than the fiji live rock I bought.

I purchased dry rock for my horse tank rebuild, and seeded it with amphipods, the macros had plenty of copepods. Don't go seeding dry rock for a seahorse tank with a piece of live rock, you defeat the whole purpose of selecting dry rock to begin with.