Dealing with the uglies

florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
So what you are saying is if this product is used as directed it can cause a tank crash and destroy your bio filtration. Guess i was just one of the luck ones that used it and did not have this happen. but i will be sure to pass on your assessment to the members of my club. One frequent speaker happens to be Mr. Sprung. I cant wait to hear what he has to say about your condemnation of this product. Would you mind if i use your quote as a reference to your position ?
 
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2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Feel free to use whatever you wish bud. I didn't condemn the product. If you look back I suggested proceeding with caution if you do decide to use it which I don't think is unreasonable based on anecdotal evidence. Otherwise it seems like a useful tool for some folks.

From a common sense perspective it also seems to be useful against Dino which indicates its somewhat non selective in what it kills. And if anecdotal evidence suggests anything at all to me it would be older tanks are at higher risk.

Now the impression I got from Mr. Farley's comments were that he feels the manufacturer has always been a little shady about the way some of these guys advertise their products. So yes, I would be currious to hear Mr. Sprungs opinion since he seems to be a more let nature take its course kind of guy.

But I don't have the opportunity to talk with guys like that so if you would kindly ask him when you see him I'd be curious to hear about it.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
First and foremost i will ask him and get back to you. I don't know many antibiotics that are specific in their application. Many are broad spectrum. BUT in this case is seems they do not attack nitrification. Do your really believe if that was the case after all this time they would still be on the market ?? As far as you NOT condemning this produce your quote

"It sounds like the stuff has real potential to disrupt the nitrogen cycle. Plenty of threads out there with people claiming crashes or deaths from its use" sounds condemning tome
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
florida joe said:
First and foremost i will ask him and get back to you. I don't know many antibiotics that are specific in their application. Many are broad spectrum. BUT in this case is seems they do not attack nitrification. Do your really believe if that was the case after all this time they would still be on the market ?? As far as you NOT condemning this produce your quote

"It sounds like the stuff has real potential to disrupt the nitrogen cycle. Plenty of threads out there with people claiming crashes or deaths from its use" sounds condemning tome
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I like to think of it more as a warning but it makes little difference to me.

You seem to be adamant about following the directions. The directions state to turn off the skimmer. You recommended running it with the cup off for oxygen.

Coincidental Ive had my own experience with death and medication. Wasn't having a issue until late one night I forgot to turn the air pump back on and woke up to death.

Fact of the matter is Joe, accidents happen and you can't prove to me that it doesn't effect other bacteria. Cyano is essentially a denitrifying bacteria which makes your argument pretty much mute.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
I must admit my friend you got me here. I am adamant about following directions. Now lets see what they say. Turn off your skimmer and increase oxygenation. Well it seems to me if i leave my protein skimmer on but remove the collection cup it saves me having to buy an air pump and air stone. but what do i know. can you prove to me that by removing cyano we are depriving our system of denitrification. As far as I know cyano feeds on phosphates and through photosynthesis NOT nitrates. But if it did we would certainly have something going for us now would we not
 
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2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
You sure you want to hit me with those questions? You mean to tell me all this time in the hobby and you haven't read up on the primary limiters of cyano?

Cyano fixes nitrogen in what is called "nitrogen fixation" and makes its own food with it. It needs light in order to do this. Ammonia, and nitrate are easiest for the bacteria break down or consume. Sound familiar?

Sounds a lot like the symbiotic bacteria that forms a relationship with algae and plants which provides nitrogen fixation for them to feed if ammonia or nitrate isn't readily available.

Phosphates are used but like all species of life nitrogen and phosphorus play different rolls as building blocks. Phosphates are most likely what gives cyano a darker red, brown, black color. Excessive nitrogen probably the more blue color.

But what would I know?
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Of course my good friend I am hitting you with these questions how else would I learn. Now to further my education. I do believe cyano is photosynthetic and manufactures its own food through this method. As far as I know the bacteria convert inert atmospheric nitrogen into an organic form. This can be ammonia or NITRATES. So if I understand this correctly the cyano produces nitrates. If this is true then how can it be a denitrifying bacteria ? Color, I was always under the impression that photosynthetic pigments give cyano it color Not phosphates The phycobilin pigments, the reddish phycoerythrin and the blue phycocyanin, am I wrong.

Do you find a reason not to remover the collection cup on a protein skimmer if one needs to add aeration to their tank?

Finally my friend and most important. If as you say chemiclean can when used as directed destroy our bio filtration system why the HELL is it still on the market? Is it not time for the leaders of our hobby to go public with this info and save us from potential disaster ?

Interesting read on ChemiClean
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529602


Still trying to find anything where using it as directed can cause a crash in bio filtration
 
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2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
It's all good my friend. I enjoy the learning experience.

The color thing was just a theory of mine. Most likely not the cause but I had read somewhere that excess of certain nutrients can play a roll in color.

Cayno doesn't produce nitrates. What it does is convert nitrate, ammonia or atmospheric or disolved nitrogen gas into ammonium so it can be consumed. Ammonia takes the least amount of energy to convert into ammonium so it will consume that first if it's available. Nitrates second and atmospheric nitrogen 3Rd if thats all there is. Or that at least is how I understand it.

There are plenty of meds on the market that claim to be reef safe if directions are followed and they are all sold to this day.

I think problems most likely arise from not following directions to the Tee, accidents or equipment failure. Murphys law is real which is why I felt it prudent to bring awareness.

The instructions are also not terribly clear as to why increasing oxygen is important. Running a small air stone may not provide enough oxygen with a heavy bio load in the tank. I've read a handful of posts saying they had deaths at half of the recommended dose. And the instructions say to turn the skimmer off which is an excellent source for aeration. A new hobbyist may not fully understand what they are getting into when dealing with meds.

Still don't see any good reason why an antibiotic wouldn't have some sort of effect on the nitrogen cycle.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
and so do i my friend, we both want what is best for the hobby. I am in agreement with some that feel there is no antibiotic in CemiClean. And if they where to openly give their ingredients to the public it may come to pass that their secret ingredient is something easy accessible and CHEAP. there goes their cash cow. we all know in the end when it comes to selling something its all about the dollar
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Always about the all mighty dollar bud.

FWIW, the link you posted earlier was one of the many threads I had thumbed through the other night. But it's an old one posted before other information became known.

Being a FDA approved drug by law the company has to provide the ingredients in their product when requested in writing. It took a hobbyist in the medical field with the know how to get that infornation and share it on the nano forum.

Pretty sure at this point we know one of the active ingredients is Erythromycin Cetyl Sulphate which is an antibacteria.

They aren't required to tell us the specific concentrations of each ingredient since that's their proprietary secret sauce.

But If you ask me I could probably make my own version of cemiclean by crushing up some pills and dosing my tank with it if I had access to those meds.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Over the Labor www.eurofins.de been applied to laboratory examination of ChemiClean in August of us. The result came at the end of August.

The result was as expected:
It may well antibiotics contained in the agent ChemiClean, namely, according to analysis of the laboratory exactly 320 mg / KG . It is a physical-chemical examination. (LC-MS / MS) test report number: AR-06-JJ-076115-01 and sample number: 703-2006-00076098
start investigation 07/08/2006
end examination 30.08.2006

This antibiotic was found in the laboratory is callederythromycin. This is a very favorable Breibandantibiotikum which is located in the cent range.


Quote Wikipedia:
Link: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythromycin
Erythromycin is a macrolide antibiotic with a broad spectrum of activity against gram-positive pathogens (streptococci, staphylococci) and anaerobes (P. acnes, Corynebacterium). Erythromycin is the leading substance of the macrolide antibiotics, which is most frequently used. Treatment with the active substance erythromycin is usually not very long (a few weeks), because either the cure is successful or the pathogens are resistant after this time. In both cases the further treatment is of course not useful.

Main group: antibiotic
. 1 Subgroup: macrolide antibiotic
. 2 Subgroup: Translokasehemmer
It involves a Rezeptpflichtiges / Prescriptionmedicine!
 
one-fish

one-fish

Active Member
When debates like this happen (seems like everyday) we learn, well at least I do
will continue lurking around....Thx..
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
This is getting interesting the report was just identifying what is in chemiclean not if its detrimental to bio filtration now as I understand it Erythromycin treats gram positive bacteria. Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter are gram negative.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
florida joe said:
This is getting interesting the report was just identifying what is in chemiclean not if its detrimental to bio filtration now as I understand it Erythromycin treats gram positive bacteria. Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter are gram negative.
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It said effective against gram positive pathogens AND anaerobes (broad spectrum).
 
one-fish

one-fish

Active Member
Lol ...If not then I have some "uglies" over here. Erythromycin was prescribed for my sinus infections.....
 
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