The transfer method to treat ich and to do as a quarenteen.

lesleybird

Active Member
Well, Hi guys....I had ich in my 90 gallon and took all the live rock out last week to treat the tank with hypo and it was a real mess as I tried to get all the live sand out (have lots of worms that would not survive hypo). I was going to start hypo but got scared as I have been reading on line that it is stressful to the fish and often does not completely get rid of the ich. Well, to get on with my story, I had a Majestic Angel in the 90 gallon that I have had for 4 years and was to get a 180 gallon for next week to put him and the goldflake angel $360, that I have in a quarenteen tank upstairs in an extra bedroom. When the Majestic angel was stressed from the ich and stopped eating I thought that I should do something fast or he would not recover. I read up on line and found that quinine and malachate green in the old Greenex that is no longer made was safe for live rock and live sand. I found some Greenex that a local fish store still had in stock and went home and added 80 drops to the 90 gallon tank. Went reading online after that and found that a handful of people had used Greenex and said it killed all their fish. Well, I had already added it and the next morning all my fish were dead except for the two clowns and a royal gramma. I did a 25 percent water change and added some carbon.
My Majestic angelfish of 4 years who I was buying the 180 gallon for was dead, bicolor blenny dead, red wrasse dead, sixline dead, lyretail antheas dead. I don't have a clue why the clowns are still fine. I also treated my goldflake angel in the 29 gallon quarenteen with the same Greenex and he is fine but still with ich, still eating.
Anyway, I had to call in sick to work that day and cried all day about the Majestic angel named Loushu. The other fish did not really matter as much, but my Majestic angel dying was heartbreaking to me. I burried him in the backyard with a large seashell as a grave marker.
I am doing better and have decided that I will really try to save my new goldflake angel and the clowns. I have decided to cure the ich using the transfer method. I will change them from one 18 gallon rubbermaid to another every two days for about 10 days to two weeks while drying and cleaning each rubbermaid inbetween and using new water. I have some duplicate stuff for the tanks like two heaters, two sets of pvc, and two powerheads. I think I will run a little bleach inbetween and put antichlorine and empty and dry every other day.
I have read that this method will work because the ich grows on the fish for 5 to 7 days and then falls off and sits in the tank for 3 to 21 plus days to mature before hatching into swimmers to re-infect the fish. If one cleans and changes to a new tank with new water every two days this cycle is broken and the fish are not reinfected and after a week or two no longer have ich. I plan to do this for about 10 days or maybe a little longer while having lots of saltwater on hand to do the changes. Will acculimate them in a one gallon bucket inbetween changes and not take any of this water into the newly cleaned rubbermaid. I will use both hands cupped around each fish to transfer as everytime I net my fish they get their face or gills or something caught in the net. I will add a lot of cycle bacteria and some Aquamel to keep the amonia from getting out of hand in the uncycled rubbermaids inbetween the every other day complete water changes.
In the mean time I am going to tear down the 29 gallon and start to re-cycle the tank so that the two clowns, the 3 inch goldflake, and royal gramma can live in their while I return the live rock to the 90 gallon for two months of fallow. Never again to not quarenteen fish! Lesley
 

hocky

Member
I've never heard of this method personally, but it sounds completely logical to me. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
 

lesleybird

Active Member
Update.....Did some reading online and it said that all one has to do inbetween water changes is let the other rubbermaid and PVC etc. dry out (I am still going to wipe everything down just in case to remove the spores) and then transfer the fish every two days between the two rubbermaids with PVC pipes for them to hide in and two heaters and two powerheads. I think that one must have two heaters and two powerheads because they too need to dry out to kill any spores between switching the fish over to the new tub every two days. Some say that every three day transfer is enough, but I am not going to take any chances because the Tomonts can hatch in as little as three days into free swimming theronts that can re-infect the fish.
I did go to the hardware store last night and got a bigger 31 gallon tub which I will fill with a little over 20 gallons, maybe 25 gallons because the two clowns and royal gramma go in there with the 3 inch gold flake angel tonight for their 10 day treatment of exchanges. This treatment is said to be very effective in curing the ich with out any meds or hyposalinity. I got something called Ammo Lock that is suppose to lock up ammonia in the water and render it harmless to the fish just in case it creaps up during the two day period. I also pour about 4 or 5 caps full of cycle bacteria in.
Also read that a less stressful method of catching the fish to transfer is to chase them into a large clear plastic bag....I can then take them out, set the bag into my bucket to support it and slowly pour cups of new water in there every 15 minutes to acculimate. Then I can pour a lot of the water out and have my husband hold the bag, (or maybe I will pour them into my 2 gallon bucket) over the water in the new rubbermaid while I gently cup my hands around each fish and plop them into the new water (don't want to get much of the old water in the new). I do this as like I said before, netting is often harmful as the fish often get fins, mouth, gills etc. caught in nets. I will keep everyone posted as to how it turns out. If this works it could be a treatment option. One can remove their fish from the display and do the transfer method of treatment for 10 to 12 days while getting another holding tank cycled to keep their fish in for the 6 to 8 week fallow period for their display tank. Lesley
 

sk8shorty01

Active Member
I see you talking about not doing hypo a lot on these threads but have yet to see you try it and have it fail. Thus far, all of your other methods have gone without great success so why not just try to hypo the fish originally and get it over with? It is way more stressful on the fish to catch them, acclimate them to new temp/ph/salinity and all of that every two days for ten days. Hypo might be slightly stressful on the fish but it is a one time stress, not a heart-attack every two days. I would just hypo if I was you although your theory sounds like it could work. Either way, good luck and I hope that your fish lose the ich because based on your comments, I am sure they have had it for quite a while. Keep us posted.
 

lesleybird

Active Member
I do not want to do hypo becaues Robert Fenner says it does not get rid of all of the ich, esp. some of the new strains that have learned to live in hypo. Transfering the fish is not that stressful as I am using water from the same batch.
 

al mc

Active Member
Lesley...Sorry to read about your losses, especially the Majestic. I do not have the hands on experience that many people on this site have, but my experience is that hypo is safe and effective. I had a bad outbreak of ICH as a newbie in a 72 gallon tank and followed the directions for hypo and have not had any visible reccurence ( 2 years now ). Currently I have several larger tanks at home and at work. I have been using hypo now in my QT tanks for any/all new arriving fish and QT with normal salinity for all inverts.
Your transfer method should work also but IMHO is a lot more work than hypo.
 

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by Lesleybird
I do not want to do hypo becaues Robert Fenner says it does not get rid of all of the ich, esp. some of the new strains that have learned to live in hypo. Transfering the fish is not that stressful as I am using water from the same batch.
Are you netting these fish? The only time that hypo does not work is when people do it incorrectly. Let us know how this method works for you. I wish you the best of luck
 

lesleybird

Active Member
Well, I was going to hypo the whole 90 gallon until I got scared when the Majestic stopped eating and put the Greenex in the tank and killed 2/3 of them in a couple of hours. Some of the fish that died were not even acting sick before so they most likely would have survived. I desided to not do the hypo as I only have two clowns, royal gramma and a 3 inch goldflake angel and they are comming to put in new carpet on Friday so I have to take down the 90 gallon anyway. Desided to try to special order the 180 gallon anyway, but it was to be for my 4 year old Majestic mainly (still heart broken). Am planning to put the goldflake and a new smaller Majestic angel in the new tank this fall after any new fish go through a 6 week quarenteen. Almost want to give up on the hobby after all this. I would just keep the 90 and forget about the 180 except I ruined the seals on the tank by putting malichite green in the there....they are now bright aqua. Also, I had a new circuit put in for a bigger tank at over 200 dollars, purchased a R/O unit for it, and had a plumber put in a hose in the garage for over 300 dollars, just got a 500 dollar light fixture for a 180 gallon, and a protein skimmer for it too all by mail order. Even though I feel like throwing in the towel on saltwater fish I think I need to try just one more time. I learned the hard way. Lesley
 

sepulatian

Moderator
What is Greenex??? Another useless product that killed your fish. Try anything you would like Lesley. You have read about doing hypo, I have given you my personal email address(fishybusiness626@yahoo.com), should you have any trouble and no one is online to help you. You have tried so many different things that have failed you thus far. I don't know what else to say other than good luck with your new way. Let me or us know when you need help.
 

lesleybird

Active Member
This new way is actually proven to work in the literature. It is difficult to find info on this but it is very sound science that if you move the fish to a clean tank every other day that the ich is removed and there is no way to re-infect after the current ich live out their 5 to 7 days on the fish. When they fall off the fish it takes 3 to 21 days or more for the ich to hatch back into the swimmers that attach to the fish. If they are removed every two days to a new tank with new water and equiptment then the ich eggs that are on the bottom/sides etc. are not with the fish to reinfect them. I will let you all know how it turns out. Last night I caught all the fish in a plastic bucket, poured cups of the new water to acculimate, and lifted them out of the water gently with my hand/hands while my husband held the bucket over the water and I plopped them in the new rubbermaid with a quick scoop of the hand. They did fine. Lesley
 

lesleybird

Active Member
Update, So far so good. I have been transfering the fish back and forth between 2 thirty one gallon rubbermaids (only using about 24 gallons of water in there). All fish are doing well with no ich spots. Will keep doing this for another 7 days to make sure ich is gone. Anyone trying this must remember not to put the fish back into the same tank that they got the ich in for at least 6 to 8 weeks.
 

lesleybird

Active Member
Update July 5,
Transfered the fish again last night....no ich seen, everyone eating well. It is getting easier to catch the fish with my hands as I am getting better at it and the fish are tolerating it well. Actually the bucket is about a two or three gallon plastic bucket from the dollar store and I first get the goldflake to hide in his pvc tunnel and then get the bucket and put it on the end of the pvc and flip the pvc into the bucket so he ends up in there. Then I catch him in my hands out of the bucket to put him in the new rubbermaid after acculimation. This helps me not to chase him all over the rubbermaid to catch him. The clowns are easier, I can catch them in my hands in a few minutes as they are easier to catch. In the bucket they are all easy to catch with hands as it is a smaller area. I write the word fish with a black permanent marker on all the fish buckets so we do not accidentally use them with house cleaning chemicals. I am going to do two more transfers to be on the safe side, and because I am cycling the quarenteen tank where they will have to stay until my rocks have been fallow for at least 6 weeks. I have the live rock and inverts in other rubbermaids under lights.
I ordered my custom 190 gallon reef ready a couple of days ago and do not want to get ich in there. I special ordered the tank as the 6 foot by two foot tanks by Oceanic are all 29 inches deep (215 gallon), and I can not reach any further than 26 inches to touch the bottom. Oceanic also does not make the medium oak color any more....they only make black, cherry and an ugly light blond color oak. I ordered from my LFS through a company called DeepSea Aquatics who was part of Oceanic a few years back before they broke apart into two companies. They still make the old Oceanic color of medium oak that matches all our furniture. I figured that while I was special ordering I might as well get a 26 inch deep as it looks better than a standard 24 and a half inch deep 180 gallon which they don't make either anymore. The custom order was not much more than one off the shelf as the stand and top rims are the same size as the 180 gallon and the 215 gallon standard size tanks. Takes 3 to 6 weeks to get. I am really excited about this new tank! Tank, stand, and glass tops about 2 thousand with tax.
This ich is a nightmare and I do not ever want to deal with it again. I am going to treat all of my new fish, rocks, inverts etc. in a quarenteen before they go into the main tank. I had a really difficult time trying to do hypo because of the ph issue and trying to buffer the fresh water. I do not like to do copper because it is also toxic to the fish. If this method works I will be doing it to all my new fish for about two weeks. Maybe I will not have to have a quarenteen in the if I keep transfering between rubbermaids to eliminate the parasites and can also treat them in there if needed. Only problem is it takes a lot of saltwater!
I do not even trust quarenteening fish for a few weeks without treatment as I have read that 66 percent of fish wild caught carry ich in low levels. If they have some natural immunity they may not even show a full blown ich in quarenteen but seem healthy and maybe have an ich spot or two in their gills and we can still bring the ich into our display tanks. I think in the future I will treat all my new fish with the transfer method before putting them into the display.... Any new inverts will have to be in a fallow tank for 6 weeks, especially hermits who may carry the ich eggs on their shells.
Lesley
 

sepulatian

Moderator
Any new inverts will have to be in a fallow tank for 6 weeks, especially hermits who may carry the ich eggs on their shells.
Ich does not produce eggs. They divide. I don't know where you are getting your information from, but PLEASE read Beth's info on ich in her common treatments FAQ. I am hoping that things work out for you, but you are catching the fish in your hands which will harm their slime coat. You are moving these fish every few days, which will lower their immune system. Best of luck to you, but this does not seem like a viable choice for ich treatment to me.
 

lesleybird

Active Member
I do not harm the slime coat on the fish. If you saw how quickly I transfer these fish in my hands you would not be saying this. I barely even touch the fish. I know they are not called eggs, but for a lay person to understand the concept better I use the term eggs. I switch them every other day with very high quality saltwater. I am a registered nurse with a lot of hours of science in my background including microbiology and chemistry. I am on the infection control committie at my hospital and I do research before I do anything. My fish are doing very well thank you. If you saw my fish you would not be saying that they are being harmed, quite the contrary they are now free from the ich and feeding well. Open your mind...it is a very viable option of treatment for ich for anyone who can supply the needed saltwater for the water changes. Lesley
 

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by Lesleybird
I do not harm the slime coat on the fish. If you saw how quickly I transfer these fish in my hands you would not be saying this. I barely even touch the fish. I know they are not called eggs, but for a lay person to understand the concept better I use the term eggs. I switch them every other day with very high quality saltwater. I am a registered nurse with a lot of hours of science in my background including microbiology and chemistry. I am on the infection control committie at my hospital and I do research before I do anything. My fish are doing very well thank you. If you saw my fish you would not be saying that they are being harmed, quite the contrary they are now free from the ich and feeding well. Open your mind...it is a very viable option of treatment for ich for anyone who can supply the needed saltwater for the water changes. Lesley
You are giving the "lay" person the wrong impression of how ich reproduces. Lesley, I am sorry if you got the impression that I am not open minded. What does it matter if you are a registered nurse? Ophiura studied marine biology and admits that very little of it has to do with the hobby. I am just going to say good luck and I hope everything works out for you
 

lesleybird

Active Member
Ok...I will keep you all posted. I did not mean to insult you but I kind of felt like you were putting me down. There is a famous marine biologist named Angelo Colorni who first suggested the transfer method. I know it is not easy and takes a lot of dedication and time and water, but for me this was easier than trying to get the salinity right and the ph right in hypo. I have really gotten good about catching the fish in my hands. I think there is an art to it. I cup them in my hands and am very gentle with them. I try to catch the 3 inch goldflake angelfish in the plastic bucket when I can and then only have to gently catch him from the bucket. The clown fish are really easy to catch. I have two sets of rubbermaids, heaters, pvc pipe and powerheads and the fish go into a large plastic bucket for an hour of acculamation and back into a new set up that looks just like the other one. The ich has been gone for over 10 days. Will place them into a quarenteen tank in a couple of days. This is easy if one only has a few fish...I am only doing it to these 4 now. I plan to use it again in the future. I will keep you updated on the final long term results. I am never going to put even a snail in my new 190 gallon tank until it is in a quarenteen for at least a month! Once some has to tear a tank down due to ich infestation they will do the same. I guess I was just lucky for the first 5 years in this hobby. Lesley
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Sorry for your losses Lesley.
I'm still not sure what your apparent aversion is towards hyposalinity, but I hope your new method works.
I've heard that some subspecies of ich seem to survive hypo, but from what I've read it is very rare. (I'm not saying this to argue with your methods Lesley, but more to educate other folks who read this thread)
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, ich can be treated by the transfer method, but in all honesty, it is considerably more troublesome and stressful to fish then any other viable treatment. And, additionally, the margin for error is greater.
I would suggest that you read some articles on Cryptocaryon irritans and hyposalinity treatment (that are online) from Terry Bartelme and Steven Pro. They are both learned specifically in diseases of marine hobby fish and write well for the understanding of your average hobbyist. Both are published and well respected for their knowledge of fish diseases.
I've never seen anything that Bob Fenner said opposing hypo and would be interested to read that.
If done appropriately, hyposalinity is very effective. As a nurse, you know that medication resistant strains develop due to the misuse and overuse of a treatment. The same can occur with hyposalinity or any other medication therapy applied to marine fish. If the hobbyist appropriately quarantines new incoming fish, and appropriately treats those fish while they are in quarantine they can expect to have a positive, contagious disease free environment in their aquaria.
 

lesleybird

Active Member
Ok Beth, here is a post in which Bob Fenner replies to a person asking about hyposalinity. It is from Wet Web Media.
Almost certainly you will not be eradicating this parasite... optimized conditions, purposeful cleaners... you may acheive some sort of uneasy balance... Please read... on WWM re hyposalinity treatments, Cryptocaryoniasis... Bob Fenner>
Re: ****** and hyposalinity 8/9/05
Dear Bob,
Thanks for the reply on hyposalinity. One last question. ( 180 g FO tank ) I started the hyposalinity treatment after four fish in the tank came down with ******.
<Lowering spg will very unlikely effect a permanent cure...>
I plan on eventually putting LR in the tank. I have read on WWM extensively. Are there any other options for treating the display ( it currently has no inverts ) that will eradicate the ****** but not harm the biological filter bed.
Here is the link so that you can see I'm not making all this up. It goes on about his opinions in the next posts. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/martrthyposalfaqs.htm
You can delete this if it is not allowed, but you need to check it out first.
Lesley
<Mmm, no>
Currently all inhabitants are doing well, eating like pigs and are free of infection in SG 1.010 ( Naso tang, blue tang, majestic angel, emperor angel, Fiji Foxface ). Should I continue with the hyposalinity or should I consider other options.
<The latter>
Will formalin wipe out my bacterial bed if used at the conventionally prescribed doses ?
<Oh yes... a general biocide... crosslinks proteins... building blocks of all life on this planet... Do please read on WWM re marine ich... consider copper treatment... and soon. Bob Fenner>
Thanks Jimmy
Another post with Bob Fenner
Re: ****** and hyposalinity 8/12/05
Dear Bob,
After reading extensively on hyposalinity and crypt, and, of course, with your help, I am reaching the conclusion that eradication of crypt from the marine system can only be achieved with QT and copper treatment and letting the display lie fallow for two months.
<There are a few other approaches... but none as assuredly successful>
I was somewhat enchanted by Steve Pro's recommendation that hyposalinity is his #1 choice because it is easy on the fish.
<... if only it worked>
I am beginning to realize that there is much controversy re: hyposalinity as a cure, but more often than not, the attestations as to its effectiveness are followed by reports of outbreaks 6-12 months later.
<Or generally much sooner>
I have a 180 g FO tank and I really want to do this right but I only have a 29g and 55g tanks set up as QT, neither of which have been cycled with copper so the addition of copper will disrupt the biological cycle of the tank/filter. What is the best way to treat with copper so as not to disrupt my bio cycle ?
<Minimal doses with a chelated formulation... twice daily testing... Bob Fenner>
Personally I don't like the idea of copper if the transfer method works. Did you look up the Colorni guy? He was a pioneer of both hyposalinity and the transfer methods. I would not want to do it to a whole tank of fish, but I only have a goldflake angelfish, two clowns and a royal gramma. All are ich free and eating well...don't look stressed at all after two weeks. I am putting them in the quarenteen tank on Tuesday. Lesley
 
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