2weeks... QT cycling... Ammonia still spiking.

[tang_man_montreal]

Hey guys,
2 weeks ago, I setup my QT tank with 50% water from my established 90 gal, and 50% new mixed water, hoping that this would speed along the process
I threw in a shrimp to start the cycle as well.
Well... It's still spiking ammonia off the chart.. The shrimp is still in there (stuck to the emperor 400 suction pipe).
This normal?

 

[frankl15207]

Any additives that may be causing a false reading? Any live rock added that wasn't fully cured? Bare bottom or sand/gravel, and if so, did you add some from your existing setup? Overfeeding the shrimp?
How long has the reading been "that high" if the tank was only setup two weeks ago? Adding from your existing tank will help speed up the cycling process (actually jump start it more than speed it up). However, it won't eliminate the cycle.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

There are no additives aside from the raw shrimp in the tank. No LR. This is a barebottom tank since it will be a QT, so no sand/gravel.
Overfeeding the shrimp? What do ya mean?
The reading has been that high since the second day after the raw shrimp was introduced.

 

[frankl15207]

You didn't stipulate the pre or post mortum condition of the shrimp . Now that you've specified that it is dead, it makes it a little easier.
Is the dead shrimp still decaying? If so, that is the cause of the level. By adding the shrimp to cycle, you most likely lost any benefit that would have been gained from adding water from your established tank. The decaying shrimp is causing a bacterial bloom. Until the shrimp completely decays, the bacteria levels will remain high.
Since a QT tank is generally used only for short periods of time, adding water only from an established tank most likely would have been all that you needed to do. That is all that I have ever done with a bare tank. Any bacteria in the water will colonize the glass, but that's all. If you had thrown the raw shrimp into your main tank and nothing ate it, you would have the same result that you are having now.
If you want to make the tank permanent, you will need to have some life form in it when you aren't QTing a fish. Otherwise the bacteria in the tank will eventually run out of things to feed off of and die off. At that point, an addition will cause another cycle.
The best description of the cycle that I have ever read is in The Marine Aquarium Reference System and Invertebrates. Author - Martin Moe. Since I'm not a science geek, the cover on the book scared me because it looks like a textbook. What is between the cover made me understand it in my non-scientific state of mind.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Frank,
First off, thank you for your insight.
Now, My thoughts always were that for a filter such as an Emperor to work, it had to get beneficial bacteria cultured in the media.
For the media to get the bacteria, you had to have a source, ie: the raw shrimp.
Had I just thrown in established water, with a brand new filter, as far as I know, it would have cycled as well since there was no bacteria cultured in the media of the new filter.
So.... The question now lies on:
How do I get this tank through the cycle? Do I remove the shrimp? Leave it in there to decay?
I'm now officially stumped.

 

[frankl15207]

The filter pad would be seeded with bacteria contained in the water from the existing tank. Here is an article on setting up a QT tank. They recommend putting the sponge that will be used in the filter into the main tank or sump for a week or two to seed the sponge so that the tank doesn't need to be set up permanently:
http://www.aquarium.net/1296/1296_6.shtml
A basic QT tank is a 15 to 20 gallon tank containing a sponge filter and heater. It shouldn't contain more than a couple of fish at a time. If the fish show symtoms of stress, do a partial water change. The bacteria already present in the existing water will go a long way toward stabilizing the tank. It will also seed the filter.
Over 30+ years I've had to do this several times. There has never been any ammonia spike using this process. This includes two times where tanks leaked and an entire tank of fish needed to be moved.
If you are looking at setting up a permanent QT tank (since you are using an Emperor, I assume this is the case), plan on keeping a damsel in it and feeding the tank normally. Mine is always set up with a blue damsel in it. If I have to remove the damsel because it is aggressive toward any of the fish being added, it is moved into another bare tank with the use of water from an established tank. A single blue damsel tends not to be very aggressive with larger fish. They may intimidate, but they back off.
Since the process has started, if you want a permanent tank, I would remove the dead shrimp and let the balance of the cycle run its course. Don't add anything until the ammonia and nitrite levels are at 0. If you are looking at this as a temporary QT tank, start it over with existing tank water from your main tank and let the bacteria that is already in the Emperor take hold.
Keep in mind that the bacteria present in any system is equal to the bio load in the system. That dead shrimp is going to produce a lot more bacteria than a single fish. Once that source runs out, the bacteria will die off. The bacteria population will rise and fall based on the bio load at any given time. Unless you keep something in there to feed the bacteria, the Emperor will lose its biological capability too because there won't be anything feeding it.
I don't remember if it was in the fish or reef section, but Beth started a poll about QT tanks a several weeks ago. There is a lot of good information in that thread on how to set up and operate a QT tank.
I actually prefer to use a tank with enough decorator rock so that the fish feel safe and secure in it. I've found that they get stressed in an empty glass container.
I hope that helped some. It's late and I'm rambling and too tired to fix the ramble .

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Well..
The reason I started with a shrimp was after info I got from here... Also, I didn't want to cycle with a poor damsel.
Frank, you are right in thinking that I want to keep this QT permanently setup. And once the cycle was finished, I was going to put a Damsel or 2 in the tank, secluded from any other fish by using eggcrate to divide the tank.
What if I take the filter pads from the Emperor and put them in my sump (on the established tank)?
Will that help my situation?
Or should I take a cup of substrate, and put that in one of the media containers of the Emperor?
I will definately remove the dead shrimp tonight.
As for the fish, there will be pieces of PVC pipe to provide hiding places for them...
The thing is, I want this tank through the cycle. What's the best way to accomplish this now?

 

[frankl15207]

First, nothing that you did was wrong. It is just a longer way to get a QT tank in place. Generally the necessity of a hospital tank is an unexpected need to treat for disease.
Since you plan on using this as a permanent setup, you have multiple options at this point.
1. By all means, remove the shrimp. They cycle has started, and as pointed out by Nolofinwe, it has served its purpose.
2. The Emperor pads have already started to seed with the bacteria from the QT tank. Let them run their course.
3. If you want to get the ammonia level down faster, do a 50% to 75% water change using water from your main tank to replace it. Removal of the shrimp and the water change should help that along.
4. Put anything in the tank (PVC pipe, etc) that you plan on using if you haven't already done so. Primary bacteria cultures exist more on the solid parts of the tank than in the water. This will get the bacteria in place.
5. Put some sand from your established tank in. Since you want to make this permanent, consider putting in 1/2 to one inch of substrate (all of this does not need to come from your established tank). Fish seem happier with a substrate, and reducing stress is one of the keys here.
Since you do plan on making this permanent, let the balance of the cycle run its course. At least when the cycle completes, you will have a good comfort level that the tank can handle inhabitants. Besides, effectively you are setting up a "new" tank since it is permanent. The only bad thing that happened here is it was fed a lot more than it needed to be up front, so it may extend the cycle.
The first time that I had to setup a hospital tank (back in the 70s when I had shoulder length hair, unlike now when I'm glad for what I have left ) I had the same concerns, and not letting a hospital tank cycle defied all logic. Even a marine biologist assuring me that it wasn't a problem didn't help.
In my case, my QT tank has become a nano reef because my main tank is fully stocked and all of the fish in it have been there for long enough and get along well enough that I am very secure that they will be there for many years. As a result, I don't expect to be buying anymore fish for quite a long time. I hope you can tell me the same thing down the road.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Frank..
Thanks for all the responses..
It's good to know that I didn't do anything wrong...
So I will remove the shrimp, definately tonight.
I'll let the Emperor pads run their course as you suggested.
If I need to, At my next water change on my main tank, I'll put some into this QT. By then though, I hope that it will be ok...
I'll put some PVC into this tank ASAP. Most probably during the wkend.
As for the substrate, since this will be a QT, I will keep it barebottom in case the need for meds arises. Although I will take some sand from the established tank, and put it into the media containers in the Emperor 400 on the QT. That should help.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

The tank is sitting on a dark table, so no need to paint the bottom of the tank.. Also, I'm using blue background on the sides and back of the aquarium as well.