Algae Refugiums, A lot of questions. Please Help

[zaxs]

I’ve read through all the postings on refugiums now I have a few questions. I’m planing on a DIY, I have a 72 bow front so my space under the tank is also shaped strange so I’m not able to just drop in a 10 gal tank because of my wet dry filter takes up most of the space. I figure that with some maneuvering and getting some longer hose I’ll have about 11” by 16” square to build in. I know with refugiums the more the better so:
1. How high should I go before I go to high and light isn’t reaching the bottom through all the algae. I don’t want to spend $40 a pound for Miracle Mud and have it not be effective due to not enough light.
2. Plumbing is also a question. I read somewhere that refugiums are only beneficial if the output is NOT pumped so that the Microorganisms that go into the water can make it into the tank. I plan on pluming my refugium similar to Mr. Salty with a 1” T on my overflow to the wet/dry and a valve to control the water flow and then having an overflow from the refugium to the sump of the wet/dry and using the existing return pump.
3. I have a 8W UV sterilizer on the return line wouldn’t this Kill any beneficial Bacteria that I might want to go back to the tank. Is this good or bad?
4. Would mixing the Miracle Mud with Live sand be a good way to get the depth desired without spending $120 to get a good base for the algae?
5. Ok yet another question, with the construction, is long and narrow better than a big box? If so I could put a divider in the box so that the water will travel in a U shape and have more contact with the algae.
6. Is the water More or less dense after the Proteins and Nitrates have been removed this will affect where I want the outlet water to come off the refugium. IE top overflow or bottom.
7. What is the best rate of flow for the water? The slower the better, but when is it to slow?
8. Will I want to put turbo snails or crabs in the refugium?
I know it’s a lot of questions. Hopefully I get this right and I can get my Nitrates down I realy don’t want to run a skimmer to remove proteins because of all the good stuff that a skimmer takes out too. The algae refugium looks like the way to go.If you think of anything that I might not have addressed please let me know. Thanks

 

[tanker newbie]

im in the mists of makeing a sump too and i cant help you with all the questions but ill help with what i can
first off no matter what DO NOT use a pump to pump water into the sump, i done that and i wound up haveing tons of water and electrocal shocks cause of it, use an overflow box!
about the hight of the tank it actually depends on the lighting, for insance if you have a tank thats 5 feet high and is 10 gallons of course the light will not be inteness at the bottom as if you had 10 gallons but was closer to the plants
about the uv, it depends on the flow rate, slow and it will kill bad parasites with minimial good bacteria, to fast and it wont help with parasites but it will cut down on algae
about the snails and hermits i think that the current will be very high for them, but just besides that for a min, why have a tank thats made for filteration with snails and hermits when you can have them in somewhere you can use them(hence the main tank)

 

[zaxs]

"first off no matter what DO NOT use a pump to pump water into the sump, i done that and i wound up haveing tons of water and electrocal shocks cause of it, use an overflow box!"
I have a all glass 72 bow front that is factory drilled with an overflow so I don't have to use an overflow box. the overflow is currently plumbed to my existing wet/dry sump. The Pump is used to return water from the sump to the tank. The refugium that I plan will be running in parallel with my wet/dry.
"about the snails and hermits i think that the current will be very high for them."
I thought that when using a refugium you want the current to very slow. give the water time to interact with the plants.
null
[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: zaxs ]

 

[tanker newbie]

since u already have the built in overflow and a sump already up then you might be albe to set it up like mr salts, from the over flow (which is brokein into 3 tubes) 2 of them go into the sump, the other into the refugium which then gets syphoned into the sump(smart idea on saltys part) then all returned by 1 pump, im going to be doing something like that, just on a much smaller level and desinged a little diffrently(still getting the stuff i need though)and your correct about the speed of the waterflow, it should be somewhat slow so the nitrates can interact with the plants

 

[geoff]

Check out the articles on the ecosystem website xxx.ecosystemquariums.youknowwhat it has some good articles that include information on ideal flow rates and mud depth, you also might just want to copy the dimensions of the sumps made by ecosystems, it seems to me they are probably ideal.
Personally, I'm just buying from ecosystem but it sure is expensive.

 

[zaxs]

From the ecosystem site they have a lot of test data that went into the development of their refugium but the size seems to change a lot. In their test setups they make their refugiums about 25% the size of their main tank, IE. 400 gal tank 100-gal refugium. Then in their actual production line the ratio changes to about 5% IE. 40 gal tank 2-gal refugium. I wonder if they do this because of the claims that they make about their Mud. I think I'll try to make mine as close to 10 gal as possible for my tank 25% would be 18 gal so I'll split the difference. Wish a 10 gal would fit. Would make things so much easier. I guess I could make it fit by cutting 2" off my wet/dry sump.

 

[johnnysalt]

To those considering buying the Ecosystems refugiums, HOLY CRAP it is EXPENSIVE! Their sump kit recommended for a 75 to 95 gal tank(dimension are 30x12x16) sells for $500! The one for a 100-135 gallon goes for $700! Yeah, it comes with the mud, etc, but you could build their larger size sump out of plexiglass for about $125 easy! (A sheet of plexi 36x72 is $60 at Home Depot AND they will cut it for you....like up to 5 cuts for FREE!)
Tanker newbie....when are you going to change your name?! You've been a "newbie" for a long time!
[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: JohnnySalt ]

 

[fat_ed]

Ok, here's my advice to you as a refugium alum. Granted, mine's only a 5 gallon CPR hang-on model, but I've learned a few things since its installation:
1) Decide what you want to use the refugium for. This will help some of your questions. If you want to use it strictly for nitrate and ph control, then your issues with a return pump and a UV sterilizer are moot. If you want to use it as a breeding area for pods and mysis, red, gammarus shrimp, then this will complicate things a bit. First, it's not wise to send pods and shrimp larvae through a UV unit. Just don't do it. If you can avoid using a return pump as well, that's even better, as you are going to slice and dice some of your microfauna. In a perfect world, your refugium is somewhere above your tank and you allow the microfauna to feed back into the tank naturally.
2) Flow rate -- I've seen all sorts of numbers, so I'll just tell you that my flow rate is about 20x-25x per hr and it works for me.
3) I would definitely advise adding a non-violent clean up crew for the refugium. You have options beyond blue-legged hermits and turbo snails though.... The reason for this is that microalgae will likely also enjoy success in your refugium. It is OK to allow some microalgae to grow and further scrub the main tank of nutrients, but the cleanup crew will help keep it from getting out of hand. It's also nice to be able to see inside of your refugium.
4) I used Miracle Mud to make a DSB in my CPR, basically transforming it into an EcoSystem sans Bio Balls. Thus I can tell you that Miracle Mud looks like very fine dirt w/ some metallic flecks and other conspicuous small rocks and minerals. It takes a few weeks to settle completely, and detrivores seem to treat it just like sand. I also added some live rock and live rock rubble to mine for the caulerpa. Ironreef believes that the Miracle Mud is a joke, and the success of the Ecosystem depends on the caulerpa. I'm inclined to agree w/ Ironreef for the most part, and I would not be afraid to mix in some Oolitic sand if you like.
5) What else, what else. I add a teaspoon of iron every month to promote gowth and prevent sexual reproduction by the caulerpa. Definitely get some detrivores. I leave my lights on 24/day -- works for caulerpa, not all macro algae. My ph has remained stable as well despite not running the lighting on a reverse photocycle. About 3 watts per gallon of NO or PC light is prolly best for growing caulerpa. I've heard some people even use normal plant bulbs. I wouldn't use a tank higher than 24" for an algae refugium, and ideally less than 18". Look at plant growth on a true reef -- grows in very shallow water.
Good luck! I think you'll find it a very worthwhile investment.
[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Fat_Ed ]