alkaline and hard water problems

[tan]

Help! I have a 50 gallon reef tank with about 50 lbs of live rock. It has been set up since Oct. (5 months) and everything was going fine. I had 3 corals (star, button, mushroom, I think?), a yellow and blue tang, 2 horse shoe crabs, a mandarin goby, a tomato clown, a ritteri(sp?), a brittle star, and my last and most expensive addition, a flame angel. I noticed a very dark green coloration developing on the live rock a month or so ago and the coral slowly deteriorating. Last week, the blue tang, clown, goby, and angel all died the same day. I use staight RO to top off about once every 3 weeks or so. I haven't added any salt or buffers to the RO since my SG seems to remain at sufficient levels. My tests indicate a KH reading off the scale and the alkaline level keeps dropping yet the pH is at a perfect 8.3 always. I don't understand how the water could be so hard using RO. I have added reef builder to bring the alkaline level up satisfactorily but it seems to drop again after a few days and since the reef builder contains bicarbonate it would seem like that would only make my water harder. I just don't know what to do and I refuse to add any new fish until I solve this mystery. Please help.
Tan

 

[kris]

First, clear something up for me--KH and alkalinity are the same thing, so are you testing GH and KH?? Let me know and hopefully I can help you more.

 

[tan]

Originally posted by Kris:
First, clear something up for me--KH and alkalinity are the same thing, so are you testing GH and KH?? Let me know and hopefully I can help you more.

Kris,
I am testing GH and KH. The GH is fine, but the KH is off the scale. I didn't know that KH and alkalinity are the same?! I just started this whole business a few months ago and am learning as I go. Unfortunately, I have casualties as a result of my learning process.
Tan

 

[beth]

Yes, you are somewhat confusing when you say your KH is off the scale but your PH is fine. I would suggest you buy the best test kit of one kind, and not test for the same thing with various testing methods. You didn't mention ammoinia, nitrties, nitrates, phosphates? What are those levels?

 

[kris]

Since the ph in your tank is fine, and it is just the kh that is out of whack--I think you are using the wrong product to buffer your tank. Reef builder or anything that says "dkh" will increase the kh. It is most likely the high kh that is causing the detriment to your corals as it block the calciom ions from building in your tank. Try this method for the intial drop it worked for me--but it took two days.
-First test the kh and ph levels and write them down. For every 20g of water add 1 once of seltzer water (I used h2o brand carbonated water) (do not exceed 4 ounces at a time).Add this water to your sump if you can, if not try adding a little bit in different spots in the tank making sure not to put directly on your corals.
Wait 1hr. and test levels again (ph and kh) If there was no change repeat every hour till a change occurs. Once a change has occured switch to half doses till desired levels are obtained. It is really important to monitor these levels each and every time!
This method worked for me, but switching to r/o solved my problem as the kh and ph of my r/o is almost perfect. Have you tested the water alone before adding anything.?? Choose your products based on these readings, so next time you do a water change you can fix the water before adding it your tank. Good Luck

 

[tan]

Originally posted by beth:
Yes, you are somewhat confusing when you say your KH is off the scale but your PH is fine. I would suggest you buy the best test kit of one kind, and not test for the same thing with various testing methods. You didn't mention ammoinia, nitrties, nitrates, phosphates? What are those levels?
Confusing would definitely be a word that well describes my situation. All my tests have been perfect with the exception of the KH. I described the situation to the manufacturer of this type of tank (it's called a mini-ocean with a chiller compartment that also houses the pump, heater, skimmer, bio-chamber, etc.) He says that the KH wouldn't kill the fish. He thinks the dark blackish green that I described as being all over my live rock is blue green algae. He mentioned something about a psuedo bacteria caused from excessive dead organic matter. He suggested taking out all the rock and washing it off thoroughly and to vacuum all the crap off the coral sand with all the rocks out. He said if that didn't work to crushed a couple of erythromyacin tablets and dissolve in warm water and add to the tank. I was waiting to try that until I heard from you guys. What do you think? And in which order should I attempt cures including Kris' suggestion?
Tan

 

[tan]

I actually hadn't been buffering until this problem came up. I would just add a little of straight RO to top off. Since the water tests (except KH) were always okay, I didn't add anything to the water other than the standard stontium/molyb, iodine, and calcium for the corals. The place where I buy my fish said not to worry about the KH, but then when my fish died, they said that I should be buffering the RO each time I add it. The marine buffer directions said it was to bring the pH to the correct level so I didn't use it since my pH was fine. The reef builder said it was to bring the alkaline to the correct level when the pH is fine, so I added it. This doesn't make sense to me since I thought alkaline just meant a high pH. I am SO confused!!! According to a dip strip test my alkaline was below desirable levels, but according to a KH test that is in a kit of all the tests it wouldn't even register. It is the kind where you add a few drops of one bottle and then count the number of drops from a 2nd bottle until the liquid changes to a certain color. It is suppose to change in, like 8 to 10 drops. I've gone as high as 45 drops with no change.
Tan
Originally posted by Kris:
Since the ph in your tank is fine, and it is just the kh that is out of whack--I think you are using the wrong product to buffer your tank. Reef builder or anything that says "dkh" will increase the kh. It is most likely the high kh that is causing the detriment to your corals as it block the calciom ions from building in your tank. Try this method for the intial drop it worked for me--but it took two days.
-First test the kh and ph levels and write them down. For every 20g of water add 1 once of seltzer water (I used h2o brand carbonated water) (do not exceed 4 ounces at a time).Add this water to your sump if you can, if not try adding a little bit in different spots in the tank making sure not to put directly on your corals.
Wait 1hr. and test levels again (ph and kh) If there was no change repeat every hour till a change occurs. Once a change has occured switch to half doses till desired levels are obtained. It is really important to monitor these levels each and every time!
This method worked for me, but switching to r/o solved my problem as the kh and ph of my r/o is almost perfect. Have you tested the water alone before adding anything.?? Choose your products based on these readings, so next time you do a water change you can fix the water before adding it your tank. Good Luck

 

[kris]

You're right this a very confusing situation. Especially when ph and kh usually go in the same direction. Anyway ditch the reef builder. When it tells you that it "builds" your kh to the appropriate level it means it is going to raise it considerably, it never goes down to the appropriate level. trust me-you don't need a builder right now. And under normal circumstances (with an ok ph)you would'nt need the marine buffer either, but you will if you try my method of lowering the kh because you don't want your ph to fall too much during the process, it shouldn't, but if you do notice your ph starting to fall use this buffer to counteract (because ONLY this buffer will not raise the kh). Mine didn't drop though. I'm not sure if your blue-green algae is related to this kh problem or not, I've never heard of washing live rock, but occasionally moving it to thouroughly clean the sand sounds like a good idea to me. Keep up with your reef elements. Did you ever test your straight up r/o water?? I'm really surprised you're having these problems with r/o. oh, and I don't know what erythromycan (is that even close???) is but I would but ask your dealer if it releases c02 into the water when crushed, if so it is essentially the same method as mine.
I wish I could tell you which method to try first, but obviously I have only tried the one so hopefully someone else will put their two cents in and you can take the 2 out of 3 method. good luck
[This message has been edited by Kris (edited 03-28-2000).]

 

[tan]

The erythromycin is an antibiotic, I assume to kill this psuedo bacteria that this guy thinks may have developed as a result of all the excess organic matter. I cleaned the rocks and suck up as much crap off the crushed coral as I could today. It resulted in a 20% water change. The numbers are perfect today, even the KH. I can't believe the fish store told me to buffer after I complained of the hard water. I only have the one tang and two horse shoe crabs now. All the crabs and snails that were in the live rock are dead. Should I start restocking? And if so, what would be the best to add? It seems that I need something to eat up all the gunk.
Tan

 

[kris]

Yeah it would seem a clean up crew would be in order. I'm glad you fixed your kh problem. But I'd keep an eye on it for a while. Good Luck and look into the clean up packages on this site they're awesome and take some of the guesswork out of getting exactly what you need.

 

[tan]

Anything specific that you would recommend? How long should I let them work before restocking with fish?
Also, when I was talking to the manufacturer of the tank, I mentioned to him that I was using the special lights for corals (50/50 and 10K) and that they would only last for about a month or so and then go out. I took the first 3 back to the store each time thinking they were bad bulbs, but the store finally said they would't replace anymore and that I probably had a bad ballast. The tank dude said that those lights pull way more watts than they state and that the 20 watt ballast couldn't support them even though they were only 15 watt bulbs(the short T8's). So it looks like my $1600 tank won't be able to support coral unless a shell out for another ballast. Sucks, huh?

 

[kris]

Look on this site about their clean up crew packages--you just look at what size tank you have and they have put together a recommended group of various creatures to get the job done. I really like it when someone else does the homework, and they have.
And yeah that does really suck---

 

[tan]

Originally posted by Kris:
Look on this site about their clean up crew packages--you just look at what size tank you have and they have put together a recommended group of various creatures to get the job done. I really like it when someone else does the homework, and they have.
And yeah that does really suck---
Most of their packages include hermit crabs and I read that they can be really aggressive toward fish and anemones. Actually, I had a hermit crab that actually killed one of my anemones by picking at it's base. Also, the packages for the 50 gallons seem to recommend an awful lot of critters (like 30 or more). That seems like way too many for such a small tank. How many do all of you keep of the cleaner type animals?
Tan