Any carnation experts?

junbug1970

Member
I have a purple carnation that won't stay erect. I understand based on what i've read is difficult species to keep alive. I've tried to accomadate its need based on what i've read in many article. Low lighting and med- strong water flow. I've moved him around about 4 times already and still will not fully erect. I have 38 deep tank with 30L x 12W x 22H. I have 150w and direct/indirect spot from the powerhead 820, but still not happy.
All test comes out fine. the rest of my corals are happy and bloomed (bubble,button polyps, pulsing xenia, purple and brown gorgonias, daisy flower pot, leather, torch and green and yellow polyps)
anyone can help me?
thanks
Junus
 

michaeltx

Moderator
if I remember a carnation is a non photo coral that hangs on the under sides of ledges and cavern openings. so it would nt stand directly up because theyusually grow upsde down ( thats if I remeber it right I beleive I am though) with this type of coral you have to target feed them at night when the have there polyps open. they are in compareson to a red chili coral.
all the ones that I have ever seen were upside down. also if it is in direct lighting from your lighting is a bad idea with these corals algae seems to collect on them then they havea hard time opening up.
HTH
Mike
 

wrassecal

Active Member
Not an expert but found this info for you. HTH
Restricted Species. This species is very difficult to keep and should only be attempted by expert aquarists, Carnation Coral, Red - Dendronepthya species
Also known as: Red Carnation, Strawberry Coral, Colored Cauliflower Coral, Colored Tree Coral
The Carnation Coral, Red has a red, orange, purple color. It likes to eat filter feeding invert food, phyto-plankton a few times per week, when open. The Dendronepthya species is generally peaceful toward other tankmates. Many consider the Dendronepthya species a high-maintenance specimen. Has low lighting needs. The Red Carnation, Strawberry Coral, Colored Cauliflower Coral, Colored Tree Coral requires moderate water flow.Keep water quality high (SG 1.023 - 1.025, pH 8.1 - 8.4, Temp. 72 - 78° F). The Carnation Coral, Red is commonly collected from Indonesia.
 

junbug1970

Member
Thanks Mike. Although everyone i asked is always different. My lfs where i bought it from told me just give it time, but it has been a week and half and when i first bought it it stood str8 up about 4 inches from its base. I guess i will see in couple of days and if it doesnt look any better i will try putting him upside down. Although i never heard of such article mentioning upside down. But hey, that's why i am here to ask :D~
thanks
Junus
 

junbug1970

Member
thanks wrassecal. I do have that info. Unfortunately when i bought it the lfs told me it is rather hardy. I kept mentioning that is not fully erected since i bought him, and he told me to move him every few days until he find his right spot. he also mentioned sometime it will take over a week to acclimate themself to a new tank. is this true?
thanks
 

wrassecal

Active Member
well, I understand how you feel. I've got a beautiful yellow leather that just droops over all the time - so far at least.
 

junbug1970

Member
wrassecal, as far as your leather stands i understand how you feel. I pick up my leather time after time. However i found a perfect spot for him. I bought my self a dead torch coral and wedge him in between and he is happy. When leather stretches it lops over to which ever side he stretches to. Find yourself a spot where its base can be secure and wedge and he should be ok.
Just a thought
thanks
 

michaeltx

Moderator
yeah all of them that I have seen that were standing up were slumpt over and didnt look right but when upside down they looked fine. I will see if I can find the artical that I was reading about them awhile back when I was thinking of getting one and decided not to .,
Mike
 

michaeltx

Moderator
I havent found it yet but I will keep looking it was very intersting.
I did have it bookmarked but I had reformatt my computer so I dont have the link but ill find my take awhile though.
Mike
 

michaeltx

Moderator
I know this is long LOL but this is one of the articals that i read about them so here it is sorry so long. I am still looking for the other artical I wish this wasnt on a competitor site though LOL
Mike
Dendronephthya: A Seduction of Allusions and Illusions (revised, 2001)
Eric Borneman
The Carnation Corals
(Christmas Tree, Cotton, Soft Tree, Cauliflower Soft)
Phylum Cnidaria
Class Anthozoa
Subclass Octocorallia
Order Alcyonacea
Suborder Alcyoniina
Family Neptheidae
Genus Dendronepthya
Species – approximately 250 species
The members of the genus Dendronephthya are quite possibly some of the most beautiful corals in the entire world. They can exist in spectacular arrays of color and, when expanded, present a gaudy array of spiky polyps. It is no wonder that they appear with such frequency in stores across the country. However, this temptation of color and beauty is very misleading. All members of Dendronephthya are extraordinarily difficult to keep in captivity, and their purchase should be avoided. Unfortunately, the lack of survival of many corals leads the hobbyist, both beginner and advanced, into a world of unknown variables and theoretical dilemmas that give rise to more basic problems discussed herein.
The Carnation corals, as they are most commonly referred, are a large group of soft corals found throughout the Indo-Pacific. They are particularly common throughout the Red Sea. They are exclusively azooxanthellate, meaning all species lack zooxanthellae required for photosynthesis. Without the symbiotic algae, these corals require a continual wash of planktonic material across their polyps in order to survive. Many azooxanthellate corals are found in shaded or mostly shaded areas of the reef, as well as in very deep or cool water. Although Dendronephthya are indeed found in the wild under ledges, overhangs, and in caves, many can also be found on reef slopes in full sunlight. This is especially true for those examples found in the Red Sea. Light is not harmful to them.
The sclerites of Dendronephthya are particularly needle-like. They are frequently visible when the coral is collapsed and not feeding, as well as in the expanded animals. It has been supposed that the sclerites, which can protrude from the coral, may help facilitate gas and water exchange. This seems likely, since these corals expand tremendously and must be able to have a capable system that allows for such enormous inflation with water. It is hard to imagine how such an unimpressive lump of contracted tissue can become such an elaborate display of feeding branches. The energy expenditure needed for the active transport of substances across cell membranes to the ******** of these corals and the concomitant passive transport of water must be significant. Without photosynthesis, these corals require a significant nutrient input for their metabolic needs. It is known that Dendronepthya species can uptake dissolved organic material and bacterioplankton in significant amounts, along with feeding on particulate material (detritus), very small and non-motile zooplankton, and most significantly, are large consumers of phytoplankton. The types of food items captured will depend largely on the spacing of the tentacle pinnules. The flow rate to which Dendronepthya are exposed is also very important. If the flow is not strong enough, the animals will not feed and may be unable to maintain a feeding posture. With too much flow, the tentacles may be bent or deflected to prevent ideal particle interception filtering. r />
In the aquarium, all the amazing properties of Dendronephthya become insignificant. Why? Because they don’t survive. Despite massive importation of these corals, many refuse to expand even once upon introduction to captive conditions. They remain in a collapsed state until the tissue deteriorates. Some specimens may adopt a more Goniopora-like pattern where they may expand well for a time, and then slowly begin to expand less and less until they have wasted completely away. This is highly consistent with starvation. Of course, like many corals, there are occasional citings and claims of hobbyists who have kept Dendronepthya alive for years. I have never personally known this to be the case. In any event, I believe the factors that would allow for the success of this coral in aquariums, even if the claims were true, would be incomplete and not entirely reproducible.
It seems as though very heavy feeding of phytoplankton and detritus, strong continuous current and adequate placement would be essential to their survival. In any situation where such heavy feeding must occur, there is the downside of having to somehow dispose of the high nutrients that would predominate in such a closed system, either mechanically or biologically. Wilkens has suggested that heavy skimming and heavy feeding has allowed him to keep certain species for a period of years in systems designated almost exclusively to the needs of these and similar corals.
However, it has not become the goal of captive reefkeeping to allow for animals to merely survive for a short length of time. They must be able to survive, grow, and hopefully reproduce in captivity. I feel that attempts outside these guidelines are usually an exercise in futility, and a deleterious mismanagement of life and ecosystem. It is my position that not only should these corals not be kept in captivity at the present, but also every effort should be made by responsible aquarists to inform dealers and suppliers to stop the harvesting of these dazzling corals for the aquarium trade. Hopefully, advances in the hobby, such as the use of refugia to provide natural sources of plankters, and the proliferation of habitat style tanks, will allow the contents of this article to be proven false in the future. With some work, Dendronephthya may one day become a commonly aquacultured coral and a welcome addition to an aquarium. However, hobbyists should not succumb to allusions that others are keeping this coral with any degree of success, nor to illusions that they are capable of prevailing with no basis besides an otherwise thriving reef community.
There have been so many advances in the reefkeeping hobby in the past several years, most of which are unknown to beginning and intermediate hobbyists. This brings up what I feel to be a grave and unfortunate occurrence within the community of reefkeepers. Despite rapid advances being made, the influx of new captive reefs by beginners is far outpacing the dissemination and availability of current knowledge. It has become obvious that no matter how many books are available and how many articles are written, the majority of people unfailingly believe whatever the uninformed retailer tells them to be true -and many retailers are still telling them to buy Dendronephthya.
A wide void still exists between the small percentage of advanced hobbyists and all the rest of the people keeping reefs. Every day, hundreds of people go home with equipment and supplies to start a reef tank, often blindly. Books, magazines, and other information sources that publish advanced findings are either too complicated for someone without a scientific background, or are priced so high that it is impossible to convince a beginner to spend the money on these helpful resources. The serious hobbyists are predominantly the ones willing to pay large sums of money for books with information that, for the most part, they already know. Fortunately, the plethora of resources now available on the Internet is able to alleviate many of these problems to those with the desire and ability to access the information. Unfortunately, there is an equally large amount of misinformation from many such Internet sources, and it is difficult for the beginning and even intermediate aquarist to know what is accurate. I feel it is the responsibility of the educated and knowledgeable aquarist to continually and patiently help explain basic information to newcomers in the hobby that they may wrongfully assume to already exist.
There is no reason that good products and proper livestock cannot be the means of profit for all people and places. However, so long as cyanide and poorly collected reef creatures comprise the lowest priced available species, and retailers can market whatever animals are being collected, there will be wanton destruction of species and inappropriately stocked aquaria. So long as what is obvious to the advanced hobbyists is unknown, unavailable, or out of reach to the beginner and retailer, the advances made in the hobby may turn out to be fruitless.
The result is predictable. As long as there are irresponsible or unknowing people buying or marketing inappropriate species (such as Dendronephthya "at unbeatable prices"), this hobby will suffer.
 

junbug1970

Member
thanks mike. here's a photo i took few mins ago. this is big as i seen it since i brought it home, but when i saw it at the lfs it was twice the size (fully erected)
 

michaeltx

Moderator
do a search on MSN for Dendronephthya it will give you alot of links to site with info ( or even some other search engines) there is one that is very interesting by garf about feeding preditory corals and how there research is going. I thought their artical was intesting to say the least worth a look.
Mike
 

michaeltx

Moderator
O yeah I cant find where that artical was but from closer looking at the pictures they are not upside down but flooped over the edge so it looks as though they are hanging. My bad.
but one artical said that it is typical for these corals to deflate themself after getting introduced to the tank.
Mike
 

junbug1970

Member
ok thanks. I've read about some after ofcourse is been bought that it is difficult species to keep. I didn't realize it was almost impossible. I am by no means a reef expert. I might give it a day or two and if its not doing well i may just ask for a refund or exchange at the lfs.
thanks again
Junus
 

michaeltx

Moderator
that would probably be the best thing. as far as I can tell fron the garf site the have had some sucess with feeding them but have a large phyto cultivation window and something about introducing micro bubbles with the phyto for them to catch the food.
but man it really seems like a lot of work for a person that is new or even been in SW for awhile. and not something that a person with a home tank would do IMO>
Mike
 
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