Are water changes needed and why?

[snakeblitz33]

If nutrients are controlled through protein skimming, algae scrubbing and chemical filtration medias and nitrates and phosphates read zero why do water changes? I know that calcium, alkalinity and trace elements need to be replenished, but what if that is done through a calcium reactor? If you still say water changes are needed, what's the purpose? Only thing I can think of would be to replenish the saltwater used after you siphon detritus out of the sandbed or sump.

 

[reefkprz]

unfortunately there are dozens of trace elements that a calc reactor doesn't replace. many we dont test for and more that we are unaware of their utility (if they are or arent needed) water changes replace these trace elements that we can't through other means... if they were being replenished all of them through some other means (of which I am unaware) then water changes woiuldnt be needed.
IMO we currently lack the knowledge and abitlity and technology to maintain ALL of the trace elements through other means.
nutrient export can be handled in so many ways that if water changes were being done solely for nutrient export then it would be very easy to set up a system not needing them, provided you have all the right equipment, skimmers, calc reactors, DSB, LR, algae scrubbers, macro fuges and on and on. the ways to effectively remove nutrients from water can take up a rather large book.
another thing to note is many of these Nutrient export methods also deplete these trace elements. protien skimmers are really efficient at pulling calcium out of water (it still amazes me how many people don't know this or refuse to believe it). various macros also utilize calcium/alkalinity to grow along with other trace elements. how would we know if through setting up all our devies and methods to remove nutrients we arent depleting some little element that we dont test for and we dont have a "dose" for that while not knwon to be critical slowly tips our tank from healthy to marginal and on into unhealthy..
well I say thats my .02 on it I could keep blathering but who wants to read a 2 page post
P.S.
I have never had tanks look better with more equipment and less waterchanges, in many years I have noted that my tanks always thrive with lots of waterchanges, no matter how much other stuff I do to my tank. thats why I swear by my 50% water changes. when doing less yes they can look great grow and so forth but when doing insane amounts of water changes they really explode with life and vitality. ok enough now reef, just walk away LOL

 

[deton8it]

I'm with you Snake. I am in the process of trying to do a 10 gal every 2 weeks to see if it really matters. I normally go 3-4 months and then do a 10 gallon change. My tank is a 90 BTW. I will admit that I have seen a difference but I dont know if it is from the more frequent changes or the Aquavitro Salinity salt.
Here is where I will get flamed... I top off with tap water. I do water changes with tap water. I have NEVER put RO/DI water in my tank. When I do water changes, I mix the water and salt in a Rubbermaid container a day or two before I do the change. I normally don't add any de-chlorinater. I let nature take its course of natural de-chlorination. I say normally because I have used de-chlor a few times. Typically after a pipe busts near the house.
John

 

[snakeblitz33]

Calcium reactors do add trace elements back to the water how many - I have no clue. I do bi-yearly water changes with no Ill effects to livestock. I only use RO /di water to top off the tank and mix new saltwater in.
What else is the purpose of doing frequent water changes (once a month or every two weeks) other then to reduce nitrate and phosphate and "add" trace elements to the system. What if all trace can be supplemented? Would you ever have to do a water change?

 

[geoj]

How much of the trace elements does a water changes put back?
How do you know?
and
How much should there be?

 

[reefkprz]

I don't know and thats exactly my point. lIke I said how do we know we arent losing somewthing that we are not replacing by not doing water changes. untill some one can prove to me that its possible to replenish everything that we start with at the original set up I will continue to do my 50 percent waterchanges and an occasional 100% for a complete reset. tyhat way I know I have original parameters in every case I cant test for.

 

[reefkprz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/390592/are-water-changes-needed-and-why#post_3459915
. What if all trace can be supplemented? Would you ever have to do a water change?
well if all trace elements can be supplemented, I would imagine (say in the case of a mixed reef) that waterchanges would be used to reduce terpenoid compounds if you don't have another method of reducing them.
but I think you could go extremely long periods without them.

 

[spanko]

First link listed here.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Water+Changes+in+Reef+Aquaria&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

 

[the72chev]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deton8it http:///t/390592/are-water-changes-needed-and-why#post_3459885
I'm with you Snake. I am in the process of trying to do a 10 gal every 2 weeks to see if it really matters. I normally go 3-4 months and then do a 10 gallon change. My tank is a 90 BTW. I will admit that I have seen a difference but I dont know if it is from the more frequent changes or the Aquavitro Salinity salt.
Here is where I will get flamed... I top off with tap water. I do water changes with tap water. I have NEVER put RO/DI water in my tank. When I do water changes, I mix the water and salt in a Rubbermaid container a day or two before I do the change. I normally don't add any de-chlorinater. I let nature take its course of natural de-chlorination. I say normally because I have used de-chlor a few times. Typically after a pipe busts near the house.
John
No flames here John. You must be in a good area with good water. Our rural water back in ND was all RO, right out of the tap.

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJ http:///t/390592/are-water-changes-needed-and-why#post_3459924
How much of the trace elements does a water changes put back?
How do you know?
and
How much should there be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefkprZ http:///t/390592/are-water-changes-needed-and-why#post_3459928
I don't know and thats exactly my point. lIke I said how do we know we arent losing somewthing that we are not replacing by not doing water changes. untill some one can prove to me that its possible to replenish everything that we start with at the original set up I will continue to do my 50 percent waterchanges and an occasional 100% for a complete reset. tyhat way I know I have original parameters in every case I cant test for.

I think 50% or 100% isn't need and more detrimental that small more frequent changes.....Snake there is no way a Ca reactor or any other piece of equipment will replace all elements......As mentioned earlier by reef, there is so much we can't and don't even test for, so you really can't say what is or isn't important.
Good links Henry!!!!!!!

 

[snakeblitz33]

Synthetic sea salts are measured out by the element. We know the exact chemical composition of sea salt. Otherwise we couldn't make synthetic sea salts, correct?
Some tanks that don't have water changes for years and then are subjected to a water change sometimes crash or loose large colonies of corals when hey were doing well otherwise.
I'm not trying to argue for or against water changes. Just trying to understand why I should make an effort to do so once a month.

 

[acrylic51]

I think you might see or have seen the crashes in systems that haven't done water changes "forever" because you upset the balance....Basically "total shock".....Water changes are stressful to tank inhabitants regardless of how you look at it.....That's why it's recommended smaller more frequent water changes than large spaced out water changes......
I'll leave it to you Snake, but what is the "old add age" in the hobby.......

The solution to pollution is........

 

[snakeblitz33]

But what if there is no pollution?
I wish someone would convince me to do water changes once a month. Lol. Two gallons a week would be ok too I guess.

 

[acrylic51]

Seth.....Is your dieting affecting you........

How in Gods green earth can there be no pollution.........

Any time you have living breathing things they are producing waste....POLLUTION.....When you feed regardless if it's natural form or not, something is consuming something and in return producing a by product.....WASTE......
Next your argument would be filtration.....Well there is nothing 100% effective, so that argument is done.....Our filtration methods aren't 100%, so there is always some type of pollution or waste.....How small or how large who knows....but there is always a by product.......

 

[snakeblitz33]

Lol. Just theories.
I have to go through my tank once a month anyways and siphon out about two or three gallons when I get detritus off my barebottom tank and sump. Essentially doing a small water change, I guess. But it's mainly siphoning out specific waste, instead of just removing and replacing water.
How often do you find water changes necessary, acrylic?

 

[acrylic51]

On past systems Seth it was bi weekly.....On the new setup it will be daily continuous water changes........

 

[snakeblitz33]

Wow. I don't think I'll ever be that loyal to water changes. Lol

 

[reefkprz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/390592/are-water-changes-needed-and-why#post_3460043

I think 50% or 100% isn't need and more detrimental that small more frequent changes.....Snake there is no way a Ca reactor or any other piece of equipment will replace all elements......As mentioned earlier by reef, there is so much we can't and don't even test for, so you really can't say what is or isn't important.
Good links Henry!!!!!!!
I'm not talking 50% every two months, constituting a huge change in parameters. I was doing 50% once a week and 100% once a month so the tank never strayed far from the original parameters at all. unfortuantely in my new set up I wont be able to afford the salt to be so zealous about it. I will probably cut back to 25% bi weekly, with a 50% bi monthly. ON my 2.5 gallon I did 100% changes every week. no problems. my frag tanks were getting 25% once a week because they were fishless and had a super low bioload for the capacity. at one point in my 45g I was doing a 5gallon water change every day.
but we shall see how the tank runs. I generally let the tank decide what it needs. If more of less is needed I will tailor it to the tank.
ONe think I consider fact after my years of playing around with different setups and methods, you will never see corals grow faster than having perfect water quality (or rather as perfect as we can get it) you can grow corals faster in marginal light with great water than you can in high light with marginal water. < this I do not doubt.
corals can adapt to light levels within a certain tolerrance, they cant however adapt to being missing something from their "diet" if you will.they just grow slower to take the time to get as much as they need to grow. if its not available they dont grow.

 

[spanko]

Seth, do you think there is something to be gained by not doing water changes, other than saving the money that is?

 

[snakeblitz33]

Save money, time and effort. Lol. J/k
In one of my 55s way back when, I had not done a water change in a year. The corals in that tank grew 2x faster than in my well lit 90g tank with monthly water changes. Not really proof of anything, just an observation.