Bad News

[iusetablesalt]

Sometimes this comes into my mind and makes me sad to be an aquarist

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3213245.ece

 

[joebob7]

I think that our hobby is given a bad rep because of these things. But really like the article says, we only take a tiny percentage of corals compared to the many that are killed by pollution and global warming. Maybe blaming the dead coral reefs on people like us is just trying to hide the fact that everyone that uses electricity and drive cars are really killing the reefs.
but thats just my take on it

 

[salty blues]

Originally Posted by joebob7
http:///forum/post/2488349
I think that our hobby is given a bad rep because of these things. But really like the article says, we only take a tiny percentage of corals compared to the many that are killed by pollution and global warming. Maybe blaming the dead coral reefs on people like us is just trying to hide the fact that everyone that uses electricity and drive cars are really killing the reefs.
but thats just my take on it
Well if that's the case then bye, bye reefs.

 

[wangotango]

Originally Posted by joebob7
http:///forum/post/2488349
I think that our hobby is given a bad rep because of these things. But really like the article says, we only take a tiny percentage of corals compared to the many that are killed by pollution and global warming. Maybe blaming the dead coral reefs on people like us is just trying to hide the fact that everyone that uses electricity and drive cars are really killing the reefs.
but thats just my take on it
My take on it too.
This is why buying aquacultured stock is so important.
-Justin

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by WangoTango
http:///forum/post/2488486
My take on it too.
This is why buying aquacultured stock is so important.
-Justin

All the coral I have came from frags, mostly from other hobbyists. We need to spread what we have around to others to help conservation. There is also such a small percentage of hobbyists (though I'm not sure that the term would apply to those people, the ones who only care about what rare coral they can show probably don't even maintain their own tanks) who dare try to collect/show the rarest coral, as mentioned in the article.

 

[ophiura]

I'm sorry, but really...you have to face facts. There is NO REASON whatsoever to keep saltwater tanks, so to blame it on people using electricity, or farming, etc which is for life...that is pushing it, IMO. Even if you are going to make a climate change argument - well corals have managed that over geologic time many times in the past.
People are driven in this hobby to have the new, the cool, the pretty. Look at zoanthids for crying out loud! People are keeping those tanks. The only people who would care about or know about what is different are likely very active hobbyists for sure. There is a demand for the new and exciting. And there is NO point to it, IMO...no need for it. You NEED to understand that this hobby is putting an incredible demand and strain on reefs. It is one of many issues, but is not, IMO a minor one that we should try and hide behind bigger issues. I mean...last time I checked I was running my tank using electricity, so I guess it is a double edged sword.
You see people everywhere complaining about the price of tank raised fish. Well...considering the mortality on wild caught animals, there is a huge pressure on the populations.
Corals have adapted to climate change in the past. Farming and agricultural runoff, shipping accidents and other impacts are absolute considerations.
But you have to understand that you, and your fellow hobbyists DO impact the wild reefs, and not in a good way. This is why this hobby is not looked upon favorably at all, IME, in the scientific community. There are exceptions, certainly, but many do not think highly on it...in large part because it is pure entertainment. The hobbyists posting here are the exceptions to the rule in this hobby. When I think about all the people on all these boards with wild caught fish....and then figure that for each fish they have probably at least one died in transport (in all likelihood it is probably 4 to 10times that or more)...WOW that is startling.
Your solution: BUY AQUACULTURED EVERYTHING but don't try and dismiss the role and impact of this hobby by hiding behind other issues for sure.

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2488749
I'm sorry, but really...you have to face facts. There is NO REASON whatsoever to keep saltwater tanks, so to blame it on people using electricity, or farming, etc which is for life...that is pushing it, IMO. Even if you are going to make a climate change argument - well corals have managed that over geologic time many times in the past.
I think what he was saying is that the bad the aquarium trade has done pales in comparison to other causes. and I agree. I was watching some show ("Planet Earth" or something like that) where the trees in the rain forest being cut down had the unforeseen effect of allowing tons of silt to wash from the forest to the ocean (because the trees were no longer there to block the silt). this silt blocks the sun from the corals and ended up killing miles and miles of reef and they were saying this stretch of reef would probably never recover. compared to instances like that, the aquarium trade has little effect at all. if anything, the aquarium trade has helped a little because of advances in aquaculturing some corals.

 

[socal57che]

I have to agree with every word Ophiura said. (and I'm not looking for brownie points)
I wonder how God feels when I shove a hypodermic needle into one of His creatons and pump it full of lemon juice or Kalkwasser and watch it die. That part really weighs heavy on me. If I leave this hobby, that will be why. We can think we are doing some good, but these organisms cannot survive on land without our constant supervision (and a tank of saltwater). There is no glory in what we do.

 

[ophiura]

There is no doubt deforestation is BIG. But it is due to people trying to SURVIVE. To make a living, to farm, to feed their families.
I suppose we can argue that by buying these animals we are helping someone feed their families.
But honestly, we have to think about this hobby and its negative impact...and don't whitewash this impact, IMO. The more we whitewash, the more we have excuses as to why it is OK...the greater the issue will become.
Coral reefs are SEVERELY stressed which means ANY little impact is magnified. So lets not whitewash the impact of this hobby on it. Everything multiplies the stress. There is demand for rare corals by experienced people in this hobby, as it is really only the experienced folks that know what is unusual and rare anyway.
BTW, as with all posts in the Aquarium that can get "heated"...this is my opinion only

 

[1journeyman]

I disagree to some extent with Ophiura (which I say so very, very rarely).
Does our hobby have a negative impact? In some local areas, yes. Cyanide is still uses be some idiots, for instance.
HOWEVER... great strides are also being made by hobbyists in propagating species and "fragging". Recent experiments of artificially re-seeding barren reefs with frag plugs can trace much of it's origins to our hobby.
Our hobby, if done properly, can also bring the plight of the ocean to more people. Just like zoos, public aquariums, and Sea Worlds have done for years. Note, I sadi "if done properly".
Lastly, and most importantly, look at the local economies of Pacific islands like Fiji. Fiji has begun to "grow" live rock to sell as a renewable resource. Commercial fishing has typically been a bane of wild reefs in the Pacific Islands. With the increase in profits from the Aquarium trade and tourism, however, Islands like Fiji can begin to move towards more sustainable harvesting; Realizing that natural reefs are far more valuable to their nation long term.
It comes down to money. If our hobby can pay the nationals of the Pacific Islands enough they will come to value their natural resources and protect them better. The Island of Bonaire in the Caribbean is a great example. For over 40 years they have zealously guarded the reefs surrounding their islands. Now they are beginning to see real tourism dollars as their island infrastructure expands and crazy divers like myself brave the hell-hole that is San Juan airport to catch a local flight to Bonaire for a chance to shore dive there.
Good read regarding Fiji: http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2...21-355345.html

 

[t316]

After reading the entire article, here is the one sentence that stuck out in my mind the most....: The corals have been given to London Zoo.
I am well aware of the many post about fish not being able to be returned to the wild after capture, but these are corals. If the problem in this area is this widespread, don't you think we could have a taskforce that can send these beauty's back to the reef. We frag everyday. Don't tell me we can't frag this, at the very least some, back to the reef.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2489041
After reading the entire article, here is the one sentence that stuck out in my mind the most....: The corals have been given to London Zoo.
I am well aware of the many post about fish not being able to be returned to the wild after capture, but these are corals. If the problem in this area is this widespread, don't you think we could have a taskforce that can send these beauty's back to the reef. We frag everyday. Don't tell me we can't frag this, at the very least some, back to the reef.
That certainly makes more sense than "hey Bob, can we make a little more room near the alligators", I still have 47 corals to place.

 

[1journeyman]

Hehe, you guys haven't spent much time in British museums have you?
What they loot they keep.... The British Empire did this for hundreds of years. Interesting to see it hasn't changed

The British Museum has some of the most amazing historical pieces. Many of them national treasures of Egypt, Greece, etc...

 

[t316]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2489051
Hehe, you guys haven't spent much time in British museums have you?
What they loot they keep.... The British Empire did this for hundreds of years. Interesting to see it hasn't changed

The British Museum has some of the most amazing historical pieces. Many of them national treasures of Egypt, Greece, etc...
Totally agree 1journey...and this is total bullcrap. I think that's why that one sentence stood out. It's not all about the thieves...government could do a little something here to put this stuff back. I was down at a NC museum recently, one that had been just renovated with new tanks and livestock, and saw ALL KINDS of banned/extinct species, and wondered...."now I can't get that, so how did you".

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2488964
There is no doubt deforestation is BIG. But it is due to people trying to SURVIVE. To make a living, to farm, to feed their families.

that's like saying we need to create tons of pollution a day to survive, but at the same time say it's wrong for an individual to drive an SUV. damage done by the aquarium trade doesn't come anywhere close to the damage done by other means. deforestation is needed to survive? how so? it's only been about the last 100 years that man has felt that we must completely destroy the world in order to survive. we made is thousands of years without having to do so.

 

[m0nk]

I think both journeyman1 and ophiura make excellent points, and I think the truth is somewhere in between. Yes, this hobby causes stress on the reef and we cant' overlook that. We do, however, have a positive impact as well, in some regards. I think that the average hobbyist has a better understanding and respect for conservation, and we mostly try to be responsible in getting aquacultured stock when we can... at least I hope the average hobbyist does. We also mostly have a better understanding of the impact that other aspects of our lives have on the reef.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2489252
that's like saying we need to create tons of pollution a day to survive, but at the same time say it's wrong for an individual to drive an SUV. damage done by the aquarium trade doesn't come anywhere close to the damage done by other means. deforestation is needed to survive? how so? it's only been about the last 100 years that man has felt that we must completely destroy the world in order to survive. we made is thousands of years without having to do so.

Many of these areas are third world countries where deforestation is very common to make land to plant crops. I am afraid you are looking at this from the perspective of someone who has the luxury to look at the world this way, IMO. Deforestation is still rampant and the people doing it are often in third world countries where the basics of life are still, well, basic. Remember a few years back when people were concerned about the rain forests which if I recall should have been gone by now. But it is a very REAL issue and one that for much of the population of the world is a daily fact of life.
As for fragging...corals have managed this quite handily. I am not sure why everyone is so happy that humans have managed this in tanks. How do you think reefs survive hurricanes? All we have done is made use of an adaptation in the coral itself. The THOUGHT that we would have to repopulate the worlds reefs and so this is a good thing is bothersome to me. It scared the heck out of me! Tanks with their metal halides 10 inches above the water with unnatural coloration, often unnatural combinations of corals? WE are the hope?
Aquaculture is the hope...not for repopulation wild corals with corals that have acclimated to completely unnatural conditions. It is the hope to sustain this hobby, not sustain the reefs, IMO.
Take some responsibility for what this hobby has done, and has the potential to do, IMO. Take responsibility for it in what you buy. YES, there are good sides. It has, like Flipper, made coral reefs a more "in your face" and familiar ecosystem worth saving. But it DOES have a direct impact and in an area under severe stress EVERYTHING is magnified in its impact. This is not about you, as an individual hobbyist, think about ALL people keeping saltwater tanks. The DEMAND and the loss of animal life to sustain it around the whole world! It is astonishing to think about all the hobbyists in the world, and all the fish, corals, etc that die just getting to their tanks year after year. I would argue that a relatively small percentage understands the importance of conservation, and those people are on boards like these. But even here, do a simple search for tangs...and see what thoughts may run to.

There are a lot of "its my tank, my money, I'll do as I please" arguments around.
MOST fish, rock and a whole bunch of corals are still harvested from the wild. That is a fact of this hobby. Let's not sweep it under the rug because we can point to things that have a greater, APPARENT, impact. Using electricity, IMO, does not have as much of a DIRECT impact on a reef as harvesting fish, corals or live rock directly from that reef, IMO.
Whatever your argument, understand that to the public...and much of the scientific world, this hobby has no justification and has a DIRECT impact on reefs. Either accept that responsibility and be proactive, or don't. But don't be surprised when things become very hard down the road. I, for one, hope they do. I think people need it shaken into them through their pocket books. We need to come up with a better excuse than "compared to other things....its not too bad."
Tourism is an important factor but arguments can be made that widespread tourism, including lots of diving, can have very negative impacts. Heck I have been with Marine Bio students who grab and stand on corals.
How quickly could you crash your tank? Everything is magnified with delicate animals. We are part of the stress on reefs. But we can IMMEDIATELY reduce that impact as a group by buying only aquacultured. The argument that we can repopulate the worlds reefs (which I believe to be skewed, personally) is a very very risky one.
Again, all is JMO, really truly....

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2489344
Many of these areas are third world countries where deforestation is very common to make land to plant crops. I am afraid you are looking at this from the perspective of someone who has the luxury to look at the world this way, IMO. Deforestation is still rampant and the people doing it are often in third world countries where the basics of life are still, well, basic. Remember a few years back when people were concerned about the rain forests which if I recall should have been gone by now. But it is a very REAL issue and one that for much of the population of the world is a daily fact of life.
As for fragging...corals have managed this quite handily. I am not sure why everyone is so happy that humans have managed this in tanks. How do you think reefs survive hurricanes? All we have done is made use of an adaptation in the coral itself. The THOUGHT that we would have to repopulate the worlds reefs and so this is a good thing is bothersome to me. It scared the heck out of me! Tanks with their metal halides 10 inches above the water with unnatural coloration, often unnatural combinations of corals? WE are the hope?
Aquaculture is the hope...not for repopulation wild corals with corals that have acclimated to completely unnatural conditions. It is the hope to sustain this hobby, not sustain the reefs, IMO.
Take some responsibility for what this hobby has done, and has the potential to do, IMO. Take responsibility for it in what you buy. YES, there are good sides. It has, like Flipper, made coral reefs a more "in your face" and familiar ecosystem worth saving. But it DOES have a direct impact and in an area under severe stress EVERYTHING is magnified in its impact. This is not about you, as an individual hobbyist, think about ALL people keeping saltwater tanks. The DEMAND and the loss of animal life to sustain it around the whole world! It is astonishing to think about all the hobbyists in the world, and all the fish, corals, etc that die just getting to their tanks year after year. I would argue that a relatively small percentage understands the importance of conservation, and those people are on boards like these. But even here, do a simple search for tangs...and see what thoughts may run to.

There are a lot of "its my tank, my money, I'll do as I please" arguments around.
MOST fish, rock and a whole bunch of corals are still harvested from the wild. That is a fact of this hobby. Let's not sweep it under the rug because we can point to things that have a greater, APPARENT, impact. Using electricity, IMO, does not have as much of a DIRECT impact on a reef as harvesting fish, corals or live rock directly from that reef, IMO.
Whatever your argument, understand that to the public...and much of the scientific world, this hobby has no justification and has a DIRECT impact on reefs. Either accept that responsibility and be proactive, or don't. But don't be surprised when things become very hard down the road. I, for one, hope they do. I think people need it shaken into them through their pocket books. We need to come up with a better excuse than "compared to other things....its not too bad."
Tourism is an important factor but arguments can be made that widespread tourism, including lots of diving, can have very negative impacts. Heck I have been with Marine Bio students who grab and stand on corals.
How quickly could you crash your tank? Everything is magnified with delicate animals. We are part of the stress on reefs. But we can IMMEDIATELY reduce that impact as a group by buying only aquacultured. The argument that we can repopulate the worlds reefs (which I believe to be skewed, personally) is a very very risky one.
Again, all is JMO, really truly....

I definitely do agree that the thought of aquacultured frags being introduced to reefs is scary.

 

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2488749
I'm sorry, but really...you have to face facts. There is NO REASON whatsoever to keep saltwater tanks...
And there is NO point to it, IMO...no need for it. You NEED to understand that this hobby is putting an incredible demand and strain on reefs. It is one of many issues, but is not, IMO a minor one that we should try and hide behind bigger issues.
Your solution: BUY AQUACULTURED EVERYTHING but don't try and dismiss the role and impact of this hobby by hiding behind other issues for sure.
While I do agree with the solution of buying aquacultured is a gigantic leap forward, I think that a major contributing factor is that overall hobbyist ethics are weak.
What churns my stomach on this board are those who are so cavalier with the well being of their livestock. I've seen a flurry of threads lately where people are belligerant because they don't like being told that they can't keep a tang in a tank of a certain size - those who don't want to hear that coin the term "tang police." Those that have the passion for the hobby to speak out against this type of behavior are chastised as lecturing or having "an attitude." I see other threads all the time of people who claim to keep high light animals like SPS, Clams, and Anemones under inadequate lighting. Doing so is bad enough. Passing information like that along as "knowledge" is reprehensible.
In both cases, it seems like the prevailing attitude is "well I'll give it a shot, and if it dies, it dies." To me, these are the truly pathetic examples of the hobbyist. The ones who completely leave out the aspect of husbandry in favor of, as Ophiura put it... what's new, what's cool. Sometimes it's done in the name of "exploring new things." I just call it "unwillingness to care."
I do agree for the most part that there is no reason to keep fish or corals, but there is an increase in awareness. I have relatives who see my tank, and start to understand what's really down there in the ocean that is getting killed with the pollution we create. I even heard that one of my younger cousins asked her family to recycle more so that the reefs would be there for her to see one day. Does the amount of awareness I raise equal what I take? I don't know.
But in a larger sense, most of the things humans do every day are not necssary. It can be taken to any level. It's not necessary humans to level an area twice the size of Manhattan outside of Orlando to build a theme park. It's not necessary for humans to ride around on cruise ships that dump pollution into the water. It's not necessary for humans to throw out as much food as we do. In the end, only a very small part of what we do every day is critical for our survival on an animal level.
As for me? I sleep okay knowing that I invest in and provide the best possible care I can for the natural resources I consume to ensure that they live as long, as healthy, and prosper as much as possible so I can share them with other hobbyists without further taking from the environment. I don't bring an animal home that I am not equipped to care for properly. As far as I'm concerned, it's the next best thing to removing myself from the hobby entirely.

 

[1journeyman]

I agree that our hobby can have a detrimental effect. That's why I was quick to say "responsible hobbyists".
That said, I'm not aware of a single reef that has been "collected" into extinction. I'm sure there are plenty, especially in cyanide using parts of Indonesia, but I'm not aware of them. I'm not sure how big of an impact they really have. My suspicion is that over collected reefs recover far faster than reefs dredged and ripped apart by fishing nets. I know they recover faster than reefs buried by inches of sediment.
I have seen reefs destroyed by commercial fishing. I have seen reefs destroyed by runoff sediment from slash-and-burn farming.
I too have seen the dopey tourists stand on a coral head cause they got scared when snorkeling.. (I tried yelling at them but English wasn't their first language... hopefully my point came across as half the people on the dive boat heard me. Griping at someone loses some of it's effects when you half to slow way down and use lot's of hand gestures like you are playing a really competitive game of scerades

)
I guess my question is one of numbers. Have more reefs been destroyed by over farming and fishing trawls or collectors?
As I said, it comes down to money. The islanders are going to make money by exploiting their islands. That's human nature. As Ophiura pointed out, we have to look at it from their perspective. They want to provide food for their families. Can't really ask them to do anything else.
To me, since they are going to exploit their natural resources to make money anyway, collecting and tourism seem to be the best way to get them to protect the reefs. As you pointed out, they've got to eat, and Pandora's Box is open, so to speak. We can't expect islanders to go back to living in the 18th century where they could co-exist with their environment.