Battling High Nitrates

[sjg22483]

i have read a wealth of articles on lowering nitrates, all recommending frequent water changes, don't over feed, control algae problems etc. However i just want to check with you experts on some things.
I read that crushed coral is a bad substrate because it contributes to high nitrates by trapping wastes etc. My substrate is abuot 1/2 CC and 1/2 sand (a mix recommended by my fish store), do you recommend a 100% sand bed for reef tanks? Will this help out?
Also, I have plans to increase the size of my cleaner crew, right now I only have a cleaner shrimp and some blue leg hermits. I plan to get a couple types of snails and maybe a coral-banded shrimp because they take care of bristle worms as well. I also might plan on getting a cleaner clam to help lower nitrates, but i have a small 29 gallon tank with no refugium, will it be ok in my main tank or will snails, hermit crabs, and shrimp prey on it?
Also, please let me know if i should begin trying to shift my substrate towards a 100% sand mix and if that helps.
Thanks a lot for the advice and help.

 

[joker_ca]

go with a DSB of about 3-4 inches this will help to bring down your nitrates, and dont add the CBS it will most likely kill your cleaner shrimp but add another cleaner shrimp they prefre to be in pairs

 

[snipe]

Mixing isnt good. The fine sand particles will evnetually work there way down under the crushed coral and it will be just like haveing a crushed coral bed again. Yes I would try to go sand only it is better to help controle the nitrate thing and better for burrowing stuff.
I would get a bit bigger cleaner crew but I wouldnt get a Coral banded shrimp there bad guys and will kill what they can "not all will but most ppl have problems with them". I dont think anything would bother a cleaner clam.
What size of water changes are you doing and how high of nitrates are we talking?

 

[sjg22483]

As of now, i'm diong about 5 gallon changes (so like 15%... is that too high for a 29 gallon tank?) on a weekly to bi-weekly basis... and my nitrates are hovering between 60-80 which i know is very high. My fish, cleaner shrimp, crabs, and urchin seem to be ok, but i know lower is better, especially if i ever want to add coral.
On a side note, does DSB refer to "depth of sand bed" or something? I don't know all the abbreviations yet.
So far the consensus is that i need to slowly move towards a 100% sand bed, add some snails, and add a cleaner clam (and possibly a 2nd cleaner shrimp). Anything else i should be doing?

 

[msd2]

dsb= deep sand bed
You also might want to think of adding a fuge w/some cheato. It can be effective at remove excess nitrates. I only suggest this because I have found mine so vaulable for my reefkeeping.

 

[sjg22483]

again forgive my inexperience
what's cheato?

 

[msd2]

its a type of algae. If you do a search you will find more info than you ever wanted to know

 

[thomas712]

Chaetomorpha (proper spelling)
Sorry I'm no spelling wizard, this is one reason I have this word on a post it note right on my desk. I point this out because if you are going to do a search then you need the proper spelling. Many folks put the e before the a in "chaetomorpha".
I agree 100% with Msd2 about adding a fuge with the chaeto, I started a 55 gallon fuge in late October, and have near Zero for nitrates now.
I also can't stress enough about going with only aragonite sand and not mixing crushed coral with sand, they tend to work against each other in that instance.
Thomas

 

[sjg22483]

With regard to setting up a sump, i have plans to do so within the next 6 months to a year, but have none of the components yet or much idea of where to start. I have read some posts on this site with regard to setups, and they're all completely over my head. Do you guys know of any particular websites or books the explain the sump / refugium process for beginners?

 

[msd2]

Fuges/sumps are amazingly simple once you understand the basic ideas. But can be super confusing until you understand what they are about. There are some great sites out there but this forum is finicky on posting links and im not sure its okay because the one im thinking of the guy sales them also. But I can tell you briefly about how mine is setup, and my guess is you will chuckle at how simple it truly is. There are basically 3 main components, an overflow (way the water leaves your display tank and goes into the fuge/sump), the sump/fuge (which is nothing more than another tank), and a return pump (obviously to get the water back to the main tank).
Overflows:
several different designs, cpr, lifereef, amiracle. I personally like the lifereef or amiracle design. Its called a U tube design and has served me well w/o any loss of suction or trouble restarting. I can't say that for the crp model, which also requires a second pump to keep the siphon, which is another point for failure. You can do a search on overflows, this topic has been beat to death in threads.
fuge/sump:
nothing more than a tank designed to hold plants and/or animals usually used for nutrient export (aka nitrates etc). Its slow moving water with a simple light for the plants.
return
pretty straight forward, its a pump that returns the water to the display tank after its had contact time with the plants.
There are 10 million variations on sumps and fuges, just need to figure out which works best for you. BTW a sump is different than a fuge. A sump usually has much higher flow of water and is designed to hold a skimmer, heater, etc and to add water volume to a system (more water, more stable). Fuge is slower running, has plants, critter, etc. and is designed to naturally clean the water. Hope this helps a bit.
maybe a pic will help, I will attach a pic of my sump/fuge setup. Now mine maybe different than a design yo u decide to go with and I only attach the pic to help clarify some of the options you have.
on the left side is the sump. It gets roughly 500gph fed from an overflow at the top of the tank. See how the pipe running down splits? the water is fed to both the sump and the fuge from one line. On the far right side is the fuge, it gets about 150-200gph water, its now full of cheato, snails, about 15lbs of live rock. Both sides of the system drain back into a center chamber that holds the return pump that pushes the water back up to the top of the tank. There are a lot of good ppl on this board that know a lot about sumps also so feel free to questions im sure they or maybe I can answer some questions.

 

[msd2]

oops sorry wrong pic, thats of me building it. here is the one I was discussing.

 

[msd2]

Fuges/sumps are amazingly simple once you understand the basic ideas. But can be super confusing until you understand what they are about. There are some great sites out there but this forum is finicky on posting links and im not sure its okay because the one im thinking of the guy sales them also. But I can tell you briefly about how mine is setup, and my guess is you will chuckle at how simple it truly is. There are basically 3 main components, an overflow (way the water leaves your display tank and goes into the fuge/sump), the sump/fuge (which is nothing more than another tank), and a return pump (obviously to get the water back to the main tank).
Overflows:
several different designs, cpr, lifereef, amiracle. I personally like the lifereef or amiracle design. Its called a U tube design and has served me well w/o any loss of suction or trouble restarting. I can't say that for the crp model, which also requires a second pump to keep the siphon, which is another point for failure. You can do a search on overflows, this topic has been beat to death in threads.
fuge/sump:
nothing more than a tank designed to hold plants and/or animals usually used for nutrient export (aka nitrates etc). Its slow moving water with a simple light for the plants.
return
pretty straight forward, its a pump that returns the water to the display tank after its had contact time with the plants.
There are 10 million variations on sumps and fuges, just need to figure out which works best for you. BTW a sump is different than a fuge. A sump usually has much higher flow of water and is designed to hold a skimmer, heater, etc and to add water volume to a system (more water, more stable). Fuge is slower running, has plants, critter, etc. and is designed to naturally clean the water. Hope this helps a bit.
maybe a pic will help, I will attach a pic of my sump/fuge setup. Now mine maybe different than a design yo u decide to go with and I only attach the pic to help clarify some of the options you have.
on the left side is the sump. It gets roughly 500gph fed from an overflow at the top of the tank. See how the pipe running down splits? the water is fed to both the sump and the fuge from one line. On the far right side is the fuge, it gets about 150-200gph water, its now full of cheato, snails, about 15lbs of live rock. Both sides of the system drain back into a center chamber that holds the return pump that pushes the water back up to the top of the tank. There are a lot of good ppl on this board that know a lot about sumps also so feel free to questions im sure they or maybe I can answer some questions.

 

[msd2]

:notsure: okay the posts are backwards but whatever, I guess u get the idea:joy:

 

[sjg22483]

Thanks a lot, this is a great start for me, i really appreciate it.

 

[dlehto]

Me as well msd2. Great post on sump/fuge set up.
Could you send me an email with links to some sites for setting up/ building/ buying fuge/sump type systems? dlehto@usa.net
I am relatively new to swf *2-3 months* and have a hang on skilter/skimmer combo. I am looking into purchasing a good skimmer and setting up a fuge or sump or both, but it seems a bit daunting w/out having ever seen one set up in rl.
Is there some basic drawings or easy to understand diagrams anywhere? Could I overflow to a slow fuge, then go to a skimmer, then back to tank? do I adjust the pump to pump back into the tank at the same rate which it flows from the tank? (else the sump tank would overflow or run dry right?) what happens if there is a power outage? or if the pump quits working? the main tank would empty right?
I dont understand the fast/slow water in sump vs fuge. could the overflow, go through bioballs, then into a big tank *fuge* then into a skimmer and back to the tank?
I think I should set up some type of a sump/filter system to go with the skimmer I am going to buy, but I dont have 300 to 500 to spend on a nice new wet/dry.
Thanks for the help.

 

[sjg22483]

Please email me any links / additional info as well, sjg22483@aol.com

 

[msd2]

Originally posted by dlehto
Me as well msd2. Great post on sump/fuge set up.
Could you send me an email with links to some sites for setting up/ building/ buying fuge/sump type systems? dlehto@usa.net
I am relatively new to swf *2-3 months* and have a hang on skilter/skimmer combo. I am looking into purchasing a good skimmer and setting up a fuge or sump or both, but it seems a bit daunting w/out having ever seen one set up in rl.
Is there some basic drawings or easy to understand diagrams anywhere? Could I overflow to a slow fuge, then go to a skimmer, then back to tank? do I adjust the pump to pump back into the tank at the same rate which it flows from the tank? (else the sump tank would overflow or run dry right?) what happens if there is a power outage? or if the pump quits working? the main tank would empty right?
I dont understand the fast/slow water in sump vs fuge. could the overflow, go through bioballs, then into a big tank *fuge* then into a skimmer and back to the tank?
I think I should set up some type of a sump/filter system to go with the skimmer I am going to buy, but I dont have 300 to 500 to spend on a nice new wet/dry.
Thanks for the help.
I will try to get that email out to u guys today.
Let me address some of your questions.
the return pump only needs to be controlled unless u exceed the overflows ability to gravity feed the pump. So you dont need to do anything to the overflow, I do suggest puttin a ball valve on the return valve to control how fast the water is returned. Your correct if you get a pump water faster than the overflow can bring it down it would run ur fuge dry.
Like I said before you can setup ur sump/fuge anyway you want there are just some pros/cons to doing it different ways. The drawback to putting the skimmer directly after the fuge is that u will require higher flow otherwise the skimmer will just be skimming the same water again and again, making it not very effecient, or if u turn up the waterflow you reduce the effectiveness of the fuge. The other drawback is for the pods. After a month or so you will notice these tiny little critters swimming around. They eat the waste, and in general are great for the tank (cool to watch also). They seem to be able to survive the return pump ride but not a skimmer. I personally really like the euroreef skimmers, mine has served me well and is power effiecent. if you do a search for blemmished euroreefs you get them at a good price and work just as good as perfect units.
In case of a power outtage the main tank drains until the point where the overflow isnt in the water. If you drill a small hole in the top return line it will break the siphon and stop additional water from going back down into the fuge. If power goes out I get about 2 gallons returned to the sump.
BTW those prefabed wet/dry filters imho are garbage. Bioballs unless well maintained can quickly become nitrate producers. If your DIY orientated you can build a fuge/sump pretty cheap, less than 150 bucks. Course you can spend as much as u want though. The first fuge I made was a 60gal rubbermaid container that was 15bucks at target, I got the overflwo for 40, and my return pump 45. I still use the return pump, its a quiet one 4000 and love it, its been a great pump. Check the auction sites.
The different rates of speed for a fuge or sump is because of the purpose of each. sump is quick water because the skimmer can handle high volume of water, it typically holds mechanical things, heaters, etc and can deal with the higher flow and still do its purpose effectively. The fuge removes nutrients via the plants, and seems to preform better at lower speeds.
I firmly believe that if you want to run both a sump and fuge for mechanical filtration and a fuge nutrient export a seperate design w/some variation of what I showed is the better of both worlds. I have seen all different styles and different ones may work or be more appealing to you.