BIO WHEELS and NITRATES

[chappy]

GM all.
Can anyone tell me if a bio wheel actually makes your nitrates higher. I have been told to take the biowheel out as it slows down the process of the LR/LS. I have also been told to leave it in as it helps the process.
As I try to read about the subject I am getting about a 50/50 split. Does anyone here have any experience about leaving it in or taking it out.?????

My nitrates are high. and I have been doing water changes regularly, nitrites and ammonia are about zero
Thank you
God Bless

 

[jstdv8]

just like any type of mechanical filtration it must be cleaned on a regular basis to wash away the excess buildup that causes nitrate spikes.
Same as bioballs, filter socks and canister filters.

 

[chappy]

That makes sense too, but if you read the instructions that come with the bio wheel, it says do not clean as this removes the good stuff that breakes the ammonia and nitrites down. But they are talking ( I think) about using them in a freshwater tank. The eclipse system is really designed for fresh/salt water, and i don't see how this can work for both. I not the sharpest knife in the drawer and i am confused.
Would I be better to just remove completely and let the LR/LS do its job??
thanks for the reply

 

[flower]

Everything in the tank makes nitrates. EVERY single filtration, that is it's function...including your rocks and sand. The problem is that there is not enough of a certain bacteria that feeds on nitrates to make it into the harmless gas. The perfect system would be able to do that.
The not so perfect systems must rely on water changes and changing biofilters such as bio balls, canister media and bio wheels. With the power heads moving water fast and proper, the live rocks and sand being churned by the sand critters... the nitrates are washed off and away to be captured by the media in your other filters, when you change that media you remove the nitrates.
At least that's the way I always understood it.
P.S.
Every media also is covered with the good bacteria that breaks down ammonia, to nitrites, to nitrates and if you clean or remove it, you also remove some good bacteria. This why with canister filters and your bio wheel, we are told to only clean half of the media away at a time, so we don't leave our tank without enough good bacteria for the bio load. The good bacteria matches what the fish and critters dish out or "poop" out....this is why we add only one fish at a time, to allow the good bacteria to build more and keep the tank balanced so no ammonia can spike and is under control.
I have a sump and no media, just lots of good moving water and a skimmer. The refugiumm with a deep sand bed and macroalgae control the nitrates and phosphates in my Seahorse tank and I got an Aquaripure denitrator filter for my 90g...My nitrates at this moment on both tanks are 0.

 

[novahobbies]

Bio wheels are designed to remove ammonia and nitrites. They are designed specifically to cultivate the aerobic bacteria that metabolize these ingredients. Biowheels do eventually become clogged with debris, but not in the large amounts that bioballs occasionally do.
The best way to clean a biowheel would be to remove some tank water during a water change and put it in a largeish tub - a gallon or two. Take the biowheel and swirl it around in the saltwater...give it a couple good rinsings like this. Use saltwater only, and you won't kill off the bacteria you just spent months cultivating. I would recommend that this be done only every 6 months or so...these things really don't get very "dirty."

 

[chappy]

That makes perfect sense to me. I agree that would be the best way to clean a bio wheel. I am still confused. I undersatnd that filters remove the "big stuff" and how they work to be cleaned or changed regularly. But is the biowheel preventing the LR/LS from doing it's job. If the bacteria is growing on the wheel is it keeping it from growing on the lR/LS.
Should the biowheel be removed completely ( as some say) or be left in. I don't believe too many people using SW systems even use biowheels.
I am sitting here laffin to keep from crying Should I remove the biowheel completely and toss it?

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chappy http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398386
That makes perfect sense to me. I agree that would be the best way to clean a bio wheel. I am still confused. I undersatnd that filters remove the "big stuff" and how they work to be cleaned or changed regularly. But is the biowheel preventing the LR/LS from doing it's job. If the bacteria is growing on the wheel is it keeping it from growing on the lR/LS.
Should the biowheel be removed completely ( as some say) or be left in. I don't believe too many people using SW systems even use biowheels.
I am sitting here laffin to keep from crying Should I remove the biowheel completely and toss it?

Toss it. It won't stop your LR and LS from doing anything. The bio wheel is just another thing for good bacteria to grow on and it gets nasty looking...you can do without it and not have any ill affects for tossing it out.

 

[novahobbies]

The biowheel is definitely NOT preventing bacteria from growing on the LR...it is, as Flower says, just another place for bacteria to grow. Bacteria grow everywhere, and they certainly won't "choose" one place to colonize over another (assuming no inhibiting agents, of course...)
In regards to your filter question; if you're using a standard hang-on back biowheel filter then your system will have two main removable parts: a filter cartridge and a biowheel. The filter cartridge has a blue floss section bonded to a black plastic basket holding a bit of carbon. This takes care of your physical and chemical filtration, removing large particulates and some chemical impurities. The biowheel handles your bacterial filtration and is placed after the filter floss to (hopefully) prevent too many large particles from clogging this portion of the filter.
Now, as much as I care for my dear seahorse-sister in Illinois, I don't agree that the biowheel should be tossed just because it looks unpleasant. Is it an essential, necessary item in a tank? Depends on the tank. I firmly think that new hobbyists should keep them in place if they've chosen this kind of filter. It offers a modicum of stability in a tank that may not have enough live rock yet, or may have fluctuating chemistry due to the inexperienced keeper. I kept mine in place until a changed out to a different filter system, and didn't have any nitrate issues as long as I kept them clean. Even when I switched to a sump, I kept the biowheels floating in the sump to act as an emergency filter if I ever needed to set up a QT tank. Fill the QT, put in the biowheel, get it spinning -- instant "cycle."
If a person feels that the biowheel isn't getting clean, and they couldn't get their nitrates in check, then I suppose it's worth removing....but even in those circumstances I would look for other problems first. IMO it's not worth removing if it's still doing its job.

 

[jstdv8]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398364
Everything in the tank makes nitrates. EVERY single filtration, that is it's function...including your rocks and sand. The problem is that there is not enough of a certain bacteria that feeds on nitrates to make it into the harmless gas. The perfect system would be able to do that.
Macro algaes consume nitrates and then grow as an effect. same thing with a turf scrubber filtration system.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398496
Macro algaes consume nitrates and then grow as an effect. same thing with a turf scrubber filtration system.
LOL...I thought I made that clear, but maybe not. Yes, I agree the macros feed on nitrates. The "everything" I referred to that makes nitrates, are our filters and the media we use, even the live rock and sand. There is a bacteria that eats nitrates and converts it to a harmless gas, most everyone does not have adequate colonies of it. Maroalgae feeds on nitrates and phosphates and as you harvest it (trim it back) you also remove the nitrates and phosphates. Macros are awesome and natural. If I were handy I would go for the turf scrubber. Both are good ways to remove nitrates.
LOL..Nova, bio wheels make too much splash for my liking...but you make an excellant point on using it as an emergency help in a QT, and also about new tanks with not enough rock.

 

[chappy]

Please read the following, it is the argument I was given to remove the BioWheel. Please do not think tis is my idea, it was sent to me to have me remove my biowheel.To be honest I don't even understand it

Biowheels are too efficeint. With the amount of O2 around, you'll never see any of the NO3 -> N2 + 02 reaction occuring in the biowheel. Since it is real good at creating N03 and your LR/LS is less efficient at breaking NO3 down to nitrogen gas and oxygen....nitrates will build up...basically your denitrification cycle is not balanced.
Now, if you system is balanced (and as you said stocked with proper bioload) the LR/Ls should be able to keep up the cycle.
Another potential problem that most people don't think about, your system is going to become "dependent" on this external form of filtration....what happens when you change the biowheel (8-12 months) down the road? Your system will loose a large portion of its biological filtration and you'll probably see a small cycle. If you leave the filtration to the LR/LS....this will never happen.
Help ( sorry guys i did not mean to start any thing) I am just really confused. Does the biowheel make nitrates and you tank can't handle it

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chappy http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398516
Please read the following, it is the argument I was given to remove the BioWheel. Please do not think tis is my idea, it was sent to me to have me remove my biowheel.To be honest I don't even understand it

Biowheels are too efficeint. With the amount of O2 around, you'll never see any of the NO3 -> N2 + 02 reaction occuring in the biowheel. Since it is real good at creating N03 and your LR/LS is less efficient at breaking NO3 down to nitrogen gas and oxygen....nitrates will build up...basically your denitrification cycle is not balanced.
Now, if you system is balanced (and as you said stocked with proper bioload) the LR/Ls should be able to keep up the cycle.
Another potential problem that most people don't think about, your system is going to become "dependent" on this external form of filtration....what happens when you change the biowheel (8-12 months) down the road? Your system will loose a large portion of its biological filtration and you'll probably see a small cycle. If you leave the filtration to the LR/LS....this will never happen.
Help ( sorry guys i did not mean to start any thing) I am just really confused. Does the biowheel make nitrates and you tank can't handle it
It is true that if you have media like a bio wheel, you will lose good bacteria if you remove it...Here is a story to help explain
I ran a canister filter and everytime I cleaned the filter I got a small ammonia spike. 0.25 that's because I removed the media and put new in each time, so I lost good bacteria. I started cleaning only 1/2 of the media and my problem was solved.
The media is where the bacteria family lives...as long as there is enough food (ammonia) they will stay and have more babies to eat more food but if there is not enough food, they stop having babies. and just eat what is available. There is only enough bacteria to eat what is there to eat...so the two are in balance, the amount of ammonia equals the number of bacteria families. If you remove a whole rock at one time....you remove a bunch of bacteria families....those families are gone now and won't be eating dinner, so now there is extra food floating around (ammonia spike).
The bacteria family poops nitrates, so you remove the old saltwater and replace with new saltwater...flush the toilet so to speak.
The bacteria families grow where they can...all over everything. So removing anything changes the balance. If all you have for the bacteria to grow on are the rocks...then all the ammonia eating families make their home on the rock....if you have a biowheel hotel they grow there too. In a year if you remove the hotel...those families are gone and the tanks balance is affected.

 

[chappy]

Flower I actually understand what you are saying. I did a search on this site re: biowheels ( what i should have done in the beginning) and after being sent to different forums. I found out this topic has been discussed for years and years,and maybe longer. The following conclusion has been reached.
Biowheels are not nitrate factories. but can they and do they raise nitrate levels? no one agrees on this, there is still a 50/50 split on opinions. So I guess i will leave mine alone and leave it in. when it gets nasty and starts to slow down i will clean it as mentioned above.
I think we have beat this horse to death ( no pun intended). so no more discussion about this from me.
Thank you all that offered your help. Please be safe and God Bless you all.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chappy http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398538
Flower I actually understand what you are saying. I did a search on this site re: biowheels ( what i should have done in the beginning) and after being sent to different forums. I found out this topic has been discussed for years and years,and maybe longer. The following conclusion has been reached.
Biowheels are not nitrate factories. but can they and do they raise nitrate levels? no one agrees on this, there is still a 50/50 split on opinions. So I guess i will leave mine alone and leave it in. when it gets nasty and starts to slow down i will clean it as mentioned above.
I think we have beat this horse to death ( no pun intended). so no more discussion about this from me.
Thank you all that offered your help. Please be safe and God Bless you all.
LOL...you kept saying you were confused so I put in terms my grandkids could understand, sorry if I made you feel like I was talking down to you, it wasn't intended that way. Most everything about keeping fish have been discussed to death, from the best way to get rid of nitrates to the best sand size. Glad to have you aboard seeking info, and can't wait for when you develope your personal opinions so you can take the soap box stand.

 

[novahobbies]

LOL Hear, hear!
(I'm a big soapbox fan when it comes to bioballs and other so-called "nitrate factories.")

 

[saxman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstdv8 http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398496
Macro algaes consume nitrates and then grow as an effect. same thing with a turf scrubber filtration system.
Actually, macro will consume NH3 first, but feeds on NO3 if there isn't any NH3. So macro is helpful in keeping the NH3 out of the nitrogen cycle altogether.
To the OP:
As for the biowheel...if you have enuff LR, macro, etc. in the system, toss it. If you don't, keep it and consider changing it out for a more efficient method of biofiltration. JMHO...

 

[reefkprz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398591
Actually, macro will consume NH3 first, but feeds on NO3 if there isn't any NH3. So macro is helpful in keeping the NH3 out of the nitrogen cycle altogether.
To the OP:
As for the biowheel...if you have enuff LR, macro, etc. in the system, toss it. If you don't, keep it and consider changing it out for a more efficient method of biofiltration. JMHO...
I pretty much agree with this with a slight modification, the biowheels splashing also helps aerate your tanks water better due to the splashing nature which can increase dissolved oxygen amounts in your tank leading to a healthier tank overall. oxygen levels are a seriously overlooked aspect of reefkeeping.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefkprZ http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398810
I pretty much agree with this with a slight modification, the biowheels splashing also helps aerate your tanks water better due to the splashing nature which can increase dissolved oxygen amounts in your tank leading to a healthier tank overall. oxygen levels are a seriously overlooked aspect of reefkeeping.
Spray bars are awesome for moving the water and not so much splash. Saltcreep is an ugly thing.

 

[reefkprz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///forum/thread/386727/bio-wheels-and-nitrates#post_3398827
Spray bars are awesome for moving the water and not so much splash. Saltcreep is an ugly thing.
thats true but I'm talking about oxygenation not water movement. you ever get a look at the oceans wave top features? a flat surface with tons of movement underneath will get some oxygenation but a splash zone with tumbling roiling action will increase oxygen content quite a bit, oxygen moves slowly into water meaning you need a lot of agitation to get a lot of oxygen, reefs in nature can be often found at up to 90% saturation levels of oxygen. Our tanks most times don't come anywhere near this. Multiple fish, coral, and biofilter capacity problems stem from lack of enough oxygen. Its one thing to have enough to survive it's completely another to have enough to thrive.

 

[jstdv8]

if I had a biowheel setup I'd have one with two wheels and only clean one at a time.