broomer5 or anyone else

fishfood

Member
I want to follow up my overflow question here. broomer5 i have seen your sump design and have a question. I decided to go with drilling the tank when i move it. I'm also going to get an in sump return pump rather than drilling the sump and using and external pump. My question is about the spray bar you made. I am going to make two chambers in the sump( one for pump and other equipment, and other for refugium. I didn't want too much current flowing directly into the refugium so i need some ideas how to do it. The spray bar you put in yours seems like it is my best bet. Any suggestion you can offer would be great. Anyone else have a simple yet effective dyi set up for this let me know.
 

von_rahvin

Member
I'm not boomer but i've seen (in diagrams) his setup and it is quite nice. one thing to check before you plan. What kind of tank do you have?? It is is acrylic go for it, if it is glass . . . is it tempered? if it is tempered all your planning can come to naught. just something to think about.
 

fishfood

Member
A. How do you tell if a tank is tempered if there are no label on the tank
B. What is the problem with drilling a tempered tank?
 

broomer5

Active Member
Hi Fishfood !
Regular glass bottom tanks can be drilled as you know. When manufactured, regular flat sheet glass most often is cooled very quickly which results in a weaker piece of glass. Tempered glass on the other hand when it's made, is cooled very slowly. They temper flat glass here in town at several large glass plants that I've visited. They run it through annealing ovens that allow the glass to cool at a slower rate. It's just a lot stronger this way, can take a lot more force to break it, but it's most difficult to drill.
Without seeing the label ( like on an AllGlass tank bottom ) I don't know how one would tell if the glass is tempered. I can call an engineer I know at the glass plant and ask him on Monday if you want. Other than that .... maybe someone else here will know for sure. There may be a difference in color, or how the light passes through it, but I'm not 100% sure.
If you know the maker of the tank, you could call them or go visit a lfs that handles the product, and see if you can find out for sure.
There may be some tell tale signs to distinguish between the two different glass bottoms. Maybe.
As far as your sump/refugium plans - coming up with a design that works best for you, I'd be glad to help anyway I can.
If you've already thought about what I'm about to detail, please just disregard. But here's a couple things you may want to consider and give some additional thought to:
Use as big a container/tank as you can - especially if you're going to split it into half sump / half refugium.
As I'm sure you know, the refugium needs to be fed water from some place in the system. There are several ways to do this.
Some folks feed the refugium from the drain of the display tank. This may require a smaller individual drain line, teeing off a main drain line, and at least a ball valve in the line to be able to restrict some of the flow to the refugium. Personally I don't like any restrictions in my drains, but many go this route and it works fine for them.
Other folks have a separate gravity line that flows BACK to the main tank. This requires the refugium to be higher than the main tank in most every case.
Others, including myself, place everything under the tank and feed the refugium from the return pump. I went this way for couple reasons. I use external overflows - and did not want to reduce any flow from my main tank to the sump. It also was just easier for me to figure it out this way, and with using (2) 1" bulkheads and pipes from my refugium to allow water to flow back to the sump - seemed like a fairly foolproof way to prevent a flood.
In your case - you'll be able to partition "one" container/tank for both sump and refugium - which is a big plus. I could not do this and still keep the volumes of the containers as large as I wanted.
But it sounds like you can - and that's great !
You could tee off of your return pump with a small tee and tubing from hardware store. Run a branched line with small ball valve over to the refugium side to feed it water. Other end of the tee run's up to the main tank. Naturally as I'm sure you see, doing this will reduce the water flow to the main tank somewhat - and that amount all depends on the additional loss of head pressure from extra fittings and stuff, and how much water you choose to redirect over to the refugium.
Your "partition" or divider wall can be fairly high up in the sump box, with either slits or a V-notched weir, that will allow the raised water in the refugium to spill back over into your sump side. Ideal in my mind, as long as you can still regulate the flow with that ball valve.
Having the wall pretty high in the sump will allow you greater water volume and area to grow caulerpa, and give you more sump depth as well. Plus you have only ONE box of water under your tank - better in my mind for potential leaks.
The spray bar I used was for my main tank return. If I understand your question - you sound like you're considering this for your refugium as well. That would work fine.
In my case - I have (2) separate containers. If I just ran a hose from the tee off the return pump over to the "bottom" of the refugium side - when I shut off the return pump, or at power loss, the water in the refugium would siphon back over to the sump side. My 18 gallon refugium actually holds near 16 gallons, my sump is a 15 gallon container. You can see my delima. I HAD to feed the water to the refugium side from the "TOP". Upon loss of power - there is no chance of siphon - cause the feed line is at the surface and breaks siphon almost immediately.
In your case - one box with divider(s) - you should not have to worry about this as much - as long as you insure that your normal water levels in your sump is that which will allow the water draining back down from the main display tank to not overflow the sump.
The refugium will drain down to level of the slits or notch in the wall. This is if you feed your refugium from the top as well.
Just think of each compartment as it's own individual tank. How each compartment will be affected by the incoming and exiting flow of water, and how each compartment will interact with the other's water flows, ESPECIALLY upon loss of electric power. This is the kicker !
Lot's of other ways to accomplish what you want to do as well .... this just being one way.
I hope this helps you out some - sorry for lengthy reply, but feel free to keep this thread going if you want to, and let us know what you decide upon ;)
 

fishfood

Member
You know what, now that i think about your set-up i realize that the pvc spray bar was in the tank. I don't know why i thougt it was in the sump. I'll have to check out the tank and ask my lfs if they have drilled tempered or even distinguish between them. I'm sure they do. I'll figure it out soon because i have to. Probably moving in 2 - 3 weeks
thanks
 

fishfood

Member
Well I want to thank you again broomer5 for the extensive reply. I went to the lfs that i bought the tank from and it is not tempered so i will be drilling it. I went back and found johnysalts diagram of the refugium that he built and i'm going to follow that plan somewhat.
The next question i have is about pvc or flexable pool hose for the flow to the sump. I would rather have the pool hose so it is easier to move and get into the sump. I guess because i want the end of the hose to end in a 6 inch diameter pvc pipe that is open at the bottom where i can put a sponge prefilter. This way i can easily just lift up the hose and take out the sponge to clean it every other day or so. That way i will eliminate the other chamber that is in johnysalts diagram.
One more, how are those flex pool hoses with salt creep?
 

broomer5

Active Member
Most everything in the sump may get a little saltcreep. Sorta depends on how much drain water you have coming back - meaning if it's draining back fast or slow - more or less splashing of the water on things.
The small grooves in the flex hose can hold some dried salt crystals, but not too bad.
Glad to hear you'll be having the tank drilled too Fishfood. That will be sweet !
Let's see some pics if you can.
You know how we all love pics ;)
 

fishfood

Member
I have problems with the pics department. My girlfriend has a digital camera but we have tried to take some pics and they never come out too clear. Its not the best camera so i guess that is why. Plus i'm embaressed to show any pics right now becuase we have such a bad problem with hair algae. That is why I decided to add the sump/refugium and change the cc to dsb when we move. What i'll try is to finish this role of film i have in the regular camera and scan them.
Oh and i've already had my 75 cube drilled by this lfs and it turned out great. The only problem is that it has been sitting in my living room empty since last summer. I don't have enough $ to set it up the way i want so i will just work on the one 55 we have and probably set up the other 55 as a fish only.
Come May I'll let ya know how things work out.
 

fishfood

Member
Well here is the deal so far. I went to the lfs today and they told me to get measurements of the tank so they know how large of a piece of acrylic to order. I'm going to put the overflow in the middle of the back wall. They are going to put in a V shaped weir and possibly only drill one hole. That way it takes up less room in the tank. I need to figure out what color acrylic i should get. Blue or Black. I will need to paint the tank to match. They suggested black since i'll be putting some ph's in and a black background will hide them. Anyone have any suggestions. The 20 gal tank will just bearly fit in the stand so i'll go with it. They are also going to put a piece of acrylic in that tank. It still looks like i'll have to keep everything in my other 55 for at least 3-4 days maybe more. Any suggestions to help keep down or prevent another cycle. I'm going to start curing some play sand tomorrow. I'll only do 1/3 of the total I need in the tank becuase i don't want to move 150lbs of wet sand.
One more question. What return pump should i look for. I know my lfs has a lot of used pumps. What would be my best bet as far as brand and size.
 

von_rahvin

Member
I would use a mag. theyare the best pumps IMO on the market if you want an insump pump. you want your water to cycle throught the sump more than 7 times per hour. for every vertial foot you move the water you lose 50 gal per hour and for every 90 you also lose approf 50 gal per hour. the average ank is 5/6 feet tall. so you are going to lose 250-300 gall per hr right there. also you are going to have atleast 1 90 and maybe 2 depending on how you due the tubeing. so you will lose between 300-400 gallon per hour off the top. so for a 55 you need 7x55 = 385 + 400 = 785. so a mag 7 would fullfill most of your needs but a mag 9 woulg also work. if you wanted a stronger current
 
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