Changed salts and it's been down hill, any suggestions...

btldreef

Moderator
PART 1
We've used Coralife salt's for over a year now.
Finally jumped on the "Brightwell's Is the Best" band wagon going on in my area and everything has turned into a disaster. I can't fully pinpoint that it's the salt, because my 14G is using the same water and everything is fine, but the 155G is just a mess. This isn't what we need right as we get ready to move.
We've now been using Brightwell's salt for 8 weeks. In the past 5, nitrates will NOT go below 20ppm (API kit [3months old] and confirmed with the store's digital tester [can't remember the name] and a brand new API kit). We do weekly water changes, and when I test the water in the bucket before and after adding salt, nitrates are 0, which is making me question where the nitrate is coming from. I also can't get by pH to go higher than 8.0 and the KH is HIGH!
There have been no new additions to this tank either coral or fish for months now. We run carbon in three forms now:
1) bag of chemi pure elite (the large bag to handle our size tank) in the sump in a high flow area
2) chemi pure elite running in a phosphate reactor
3) fluval carbon in a bag running in a fluval fx5
**Yes we are running a Fluval FX5 AND have a 30G sump. We wanted a little extra filtration, more water volume (we can not upgrade to a bigger sump until we move) and it gives us a little more water movement in the tank. The fluval basically just has LR and carbon in it. We basically gutted out everything else and it is really acting almost like a second sump.
120lbs of live sand
250lbs of live rock
We cut back on feeding, basically cut it down to 1/3 what we used to feed and lost our Red Mandarin in the process :-( We never found him, but with a clean up crew, I can't imagine that he'd cause 20ppm nitrate for weeks on end, I've had bigger fish die and not do this, he was a baby, maybe 2 inches long if that.
We added a PhosBan reactor (two little fishies - forget which model, but big enough to run our tank).
We've now increased water changes to twice a week, still no difference. We do about 30G, which is ABOUT 20%. Also have an ATO that goes through about 10G a week.
So here's where the parameters are at as of this moment (12:45PM EST)
I'm doing all API because the Salifert Ca and Mag test is a PITA and I'm not dealing with it right now:
Nitrite: 0ppm or undetectable
Ammonia: 0ppm or undetectable
Nitrate: 15ppm

pH: 7.9
KH: 14 (where the hell did this come from, it's been 10-11)
Ca: about 400 (we know the API test kit isn't 100% accurate with this)
Temp: 79.0 at bottom of tank, 79.3 at top (day lights have been on for 2 1/2 hours so far)
Set up:
Fluval FX5 with LR in it and Carbon
30G sump w/ carbon reactor, phosphate reactor and ASM G3 skimmer and bag of carbon and LR (don't remember how many pounds, it's not that much because the ASM is a monster)
I do not remember off the top of my head what GPH our return pump does, but that and one EcoTech Vortech MP40w and the Fluval return is more than enough water movement.
Stock List:
Fish (it is a heavily stocked tank, but this has never caused an issue until now)
1 Yellow Watchmen Goby
1 Green Mandarin
2 Ocellaris Clowns (not fully grown, they're about 1 1/2 inches)
1 Bullet Banded Sleeper Goby (aka dragon goby, he's about 4" now)
1 Coral Beauty Angelfish
1 Flame Angelfish
1 Blonde Naso Tang 4"
/>3 Lyretail Anthias (babies, about 1-2")
3 PJ Cardinals (not full grown, about 2")
1 Tail Spot Blenny
1 Black Combtooth Blenny
1 Sailfin Tang (full grown, I can't catch her, and I need to so any ideas would be great)
We are moving in the next 6 months now that everything is in order and when we do the Sailfin, possibly the Naso, the watchmen and the cardinals are going.
We feed:
1 cube Emerald Entree
1 cube Mysis or a chunk of PE mysis, alternate days
1 cube Marine Cuisine
(this food is mixed together and a small amount goes into the 14G)
2 2" algae/seaweed strips a day
Again, this tank has had all these fish in it for months, so I don't think/know that they're the issue
 

btldreef

Moderator
Part 2
Inverts and CUC: As I typed this, I realized that I need to up my CUC, but this has been the CUC for months now and only recently has the nitrate been a problem)
15-20 Blue Hermits (I want to rid my tank of them, they kill my snails)
10-20 Nassarius Snails (need more I know, but I'm afraid to have too much sand sifting with the gobies and the starfish, I don't want my starfish to starve)
20-30 Trochus Snails
10 Cerith Snails, but the damn crabs keep killing them
5-10 Astrea Snails
2 Sand Sifting Starfish (before you attack me, these guys are almost 3 years old and just fine)
2 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp
2 Peppermint Shrimp (although I haven't seen them in a while, but they don't come out much anyways, I'm going to assume they're still there)
1 Emerald Crab
1 Maxima Clam (just had another die after being healthy for months, I think this is due to the nitrate issue we are having)
1 Porcelain Anemone Crab
2 Green Bubble Tip Anemones
1 Rose Bubble Tip Anemone
Tons of corals, but this is what we've lost in the past 6 or so weeks:
1 Pagoda Cup
1 Fox Coral
2 separate colonies of Duncans (each had well over 15 heads
)
1 head on our 7 head torch colony
2 Favia colonies (still some life, but I don't know if there's much hope)
We do not dose, although every once in a while, my husband drops a TINY amount of purple up in the tank, we've done this for years, never had an issue. When we were using Coralife salt, we dosed Brightwell's Alkalinity buffer, but with the Brightwell's salt, our alk is really high so no dosing is needed.
The Fluval has now been running for two days and the tank looks much clearer, but it's only dropped the nitrates from 20ppm to 15ppm. That being said, our corals look the best they've looked in weeks.
LFS finally convinced us to try IO Nitrate Reducer - I don't think it did anything, but we were at the end of our ropes and our LFS doesn't just sell us crap to make money, they really do try to help. We've known them for years.
I just can't figure it out. Our water parameters are just not right and I've never had an issue with any of our tanks, or this tank.
 

btldreef

Moderator
Part 3
And with all this going on in the tank:
My blastomussa merletti AND wellsi have never looked better, my button polyps are growing like crazy, hammer corals and frogspawns are huge and growing rapidly and my purple flower pot (goniopora) has never looked better. My anemones are the most colorful and healthiest they've looked in months. My rainbow lobo is splitting heads and growing as well. And acans are looking great

ALSO:
we have a TON of asterina starfish lately
 

posiden

Active Member
I didn't read all that, Sorry.
Did you roll the bucket of salt around before you used it?
You tested the new sea water for trates, did you test it for anything else? Alk, Cal, Phosphates, ect...
I don't want my post to sound like "one of those posts" but, I am using the bright well salt. I'm not gonna tell you its the "best you can buy", but in all the tests I've run on it with my kits. It has been right on. I have another new bag waiting to be opened and to be honest I have questioned it in the back of my mind. I followed a thread just on the bright well salt on the board. Lots of ups and downs based on others testing of the salt. I wonder if I got lucky and got a good lot #. I hope you get things sorted out.
 

flower

Well-Known Member

You didn't test for ammonia? I have had nitrates at 20 for years and years and I could keep any coral except SPS. The ones you lost are LPS.

I know that regular salt mix is different than the mix designed for a reef. Maybe the original brand made no real difference but with the new mix it does. I would buffer the PH just to get it to the right number, the Alk should stabilize it from there. What is the SG and are you sure that is correct?
Some years ago, I used an hydrometer to measure my SG, and it was reading perfect but my PH was very low..it turned out the hydrometer was way off and my SG was very low and therefore so was my PH. So that is something you might double check.
 

btldreef

Moderator
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3296250
I didn't read all that, Sorry.
Did you roll the bucket of salt around before you used it?
You tested the new sea water for trates, did you test it for anything else? Alk, Cal, Phosphates, ect...
I don't want my post to sound like "one of those posts" but, I am using the bright well salt. I'm not gonna tell you its the "best you can buy", but in all the tests I've run on it with my kits. It has been right on. I have another new bag waiting to be opened and to be honest I have questioned it in the back of my mind. I followed a thread just on the bright well salt on the board. Lots of ups and downs based on others testing of the salt. I wonder if I got lucky and got a good lot #. I hope you get things sorted out.
Yes, always stir up the salt before I use it. And I let it stir with a powerhead in the bucket of water for 2 days before it goes in the tank. I've even tested it when I first make it and two days later and it's fine. It just seems like once it goes in my tank, it turns into a disaster.

When I first had the issue I did test the new water for everything and it was right on. Which is why I'm beating my head against the wall now. I don't know what's going on.
Originally Posted by Flower

http:///forum/post/3296253

You didn't test for ammonia? I have had nitrates at 20 for years and years and I could keep any coral except SPS. The ones you lost are LPS.

I know that regular salt mix is different than the mix designed for a reef. Maybe the original brand made no real difference but with the new mix it does. I would buffer the PH just to get it to the right number, the Alk should stabilize it from there. What is the SG and are you sure that is correct?
Some years ago, I used an hydrometer to measure my SG, and it was reading perfect but my PH was very low..it turned out the hydrometer was way off and my SG was very low and therefore so was my PH. So that is something you might double check.

I DID test ammonia, it's at 0 or undetectable.
SG is 1.025, test with refractometer and hydrometer and had LFS check it, it's correct. I know my hydrometer is .03 off and it reads correctly at .03 off from my refractometer.
I never had a pH issue until I started using this salt.
I'm not positive that it is the salt itself causing issues, but it's the only major change we've made.
As for only loosing LPS, this is a problem because I do in fact want to keep SPS, but I'm not going to try if my LPS can't survive and parameters aren't in order, that would just be foolish.
What confuses me even more, is that my anemones are doing great. If the water parameters are all funky, the anemones shouldn't be happy.
 

btldreef

Moderator
going to buy more CUC now, hopefully our LFS will have what I want and will attempt AGAIN to catch the damn sailfin tonight the net has been sitting in the tank all day and she doesn't seem to be as afraid of it now.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3296256
Yes, always stir up the salt before I use it. And I let it stir with a powerhead in the bucket of water for 2 days before it goes in the tank. I've even tested it when I first make it and two days later and it's fine. It just seems like once it goes in my tank, it turns into a disaster.

When I first had the issue I did test the new water for everything and it was right on. Which is why I'm beating my head against the wall now. I don't know what's going on.
I DID test ammonia, it's at 0 or undetectable.
SG is 1.025, test with refractometer and hydrometer and had LFS check it, it's correct. I know my hydrometer is .03 off and it reads correctly at .03 off from my refractometer.
I never had a pH issue until I started using this salt.
I'm not positive that it is the salt itself causing issues, but it's the only major change we've made.
As for only loosing LPS, this is a problem because I do in fact want to keep SPS, but I'm not going to try if my LPS can't survive and parameters aren't in order, that would just be foolish.
What confuses me even more, is that my anemones are doing great. If the water parameters are all funky, the anemones shouldn't be happy.

Sorry I didn't see ammonia on your list of tests.
Change the salt back to what you had before and see if things improve. I hate fish tank mysteries. I completely agree about the anemones, they are like the first alert on water conditions.
 

btldreef

Moderator
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3296308

Sorry I didn't see ammonia on your list of tests.
Change the salt back to what you had before and see if things improve. I hate fish tank mysteries. I completely agree about the anemones, they are like the first alert on water conditions.
It's okay, it's a lot to read, and a lot going on.
I'm really banging my head against the wall.
While I was at the LFS this afternoon, talking to the one owner about our problems and that we noticed them more with Brightwell's salt, a wandering customer came over (that I know from a local forum) and said that he had the SAME issues with Brightwell's salt and he switched to AquaVitro (SeaChem) Salinity salt.
We're currently trying that.
None of the stores we went to had what we were looking for in a CUC today, so I guess I'm going to wait a week, and if there still isn't anything, I'm going to have to break down and purchase online. I just hate buying online and paying for shipping when I have soooooooo many LFS's within 45 minutes of my house.
 

btldreef

Moderator
We're going to be setting up a refugium for this tank. We were going to wait until we moved, but decided not to wait any longer.
We're looking at a 29G high tank to use as the refugium. Any suggestions on what to put in it, and how to set it up.
Here's how it currently is set up:

1) CPR OverFlow Box
2) drainage tube from overflow to sump
3) ASM G3 skimmer
4) return pump
5) where water returns to tank from sumo
6) return pump from Fluval FX5
7) Fluval FX5
8) intake for Fluval FX5
9) EcoTech Vortech MP 40w
10) where we would like to put the refugium, but may swap places with the Fluval.
We're not sure how to make the water flow through each. Some people say to make it siphon from the tank to the refugium, then drill the refugium and have that drain into the sump. So basically Tank -> Refugium -> Sump -> Tank
while other say Tank -> Sump -> Refugium -> Tank
Other say:
Tank with a Y valve so some water goes to refugium, rest goes to sump. The refugium also dumps to sump and the everything returns from sump to tank.
and so on.....
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Did you do an abrupt change?
Not good. when changing salts you should wean your system off one kind to the other.
do a 75/25 first couple times. Then 50/50 and so on. Until you got your system used to the new stuff.
Your probably seeing the die off of your biological life in the tank. Could be at a microscopic level and at a macro level as well. This is a potential cause for the spike on your readings.
 

btldreef

Moderator
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/3296376
Did you do an abrupt change?
Not good. when changing salts you should wean your system off one kind to the other.
do a 75/25 first couple times. Then 50/50 and so on. Until you got your system used to the new stuff.
Your probably seeing the die off of your biological life in the tank. Could be at a microscopic level and at a macro level as well. This is a potential cause for the spike on your readings.
I started with about 60/30 because that was what I had at the time and then went to 50/50 for the following two weeks (bought a smaller amount of coralife from a friend who had a couple buckets). Then did 25/75, and now a full blown 100%. I've been working with my LFS for the past 3 weeks to try to figure out what the cause is. I have no idea. The only thing I can say is that Brightwell's has become very popular in my area. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon a few months ago when it first came out, and now a lot of people seem to be complaining about it now that I posted this thread on a local forum. It kills me that no one else posted that they were having similar issues until I said something, I guess everyone was gun shy.

I'm still not 100% convinced that it's the salt. We're making water right now and are about to try Seachem AquaVitro Salinity. The LFS actually suggested a full 100% switch since we're having such an issue. The way I figure, things can't get that much worse, so we're going to do a full switch. We just did a 25% water change this afternoon with the Brightwell's salt, this water that we're making now will sit for two days and then it's going in. I MIGHT make 5-10G with the Brightwell's as well as the Salinity salt, but I haven't made up my mind yet, since the LFS (whom I actually do trust) is telling me just switch.
Still trying to catch the sailfin, had some offers locally for her and one guy is willing to help catch her, so hopefully that will help as well.
I'm hoping that the SeaChem AquaVitro Salinity salt at least helps with the pH. A lot of people are complaining about pH and Alkalinity with the Brightwell's salt so hopefully those problems will be solved, and it will just be an added bonus if the nitrates go down. I feel like I'm missing something big, or just overlooking something with the nitrates, but I just can't figure it out.
 

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3296319
While I was at the LFS this afternoon, talking to the one owner about our problems and that we noticed them more with Brightwell's salt, a wandering customer came over (that I know from a local forum) and said that he had the SAME issues with Brightwell's salt and he switched to AquaVitro (SeaChem) Salinity salt.
We're currently trying that.
If I miss this thread.......please let me know. I'm VERY interested in this. I swiched from sea chems salt to the bright well salt. Pm me or reach out and slap me. I want to know. Thank you.
 

btldreef

Moderator
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3296428
If I miss this thread.......please let me know. I'm VERY interested in this. I swiched from sea chems salt to the bright well salt. Pm me or reach out and slap me. I want to know. Thank you.
I will definitely keep you informed about what I see happen. The AquaVitro will be going in the tank Tuesday, and then I'll run some tests and see what happens.
I've been very dissatisfied with Brightwell's thus far. Alk was off, very, very high without dosing (and apparently a lot of people are complaining about this), and pH is low. One of the big complaints thus far is inconsistency which was always my complain with Kent Marine salt. It makes sense that if I was unhappy with Kent, I'd be unhappy with Brightwell's, afterall Dr. Brightwell used to work for Kent.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
WOW. I really did expect you to say. "Oh, didn't know that"
But you weened it pretty good.
A 60/40 may not be absolutely perfect, but you definitely did a transition period.
I vote to rule out the salt change now.
 

btldreef

Moderator
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/3296464
WOW. I really did expect you to say. "Oh, didn't know that"
But you weened it pretty good.
A 60/40 may not be absolutely perfect, but you definitely did a transition period.
I vote to rule out the salt change now.
I know, a lot of people don't know to change salt slowly. I am really crazy about water quality. I raise Maxima clams under PC lighting and then sell them, so I have to be super careful about my water quality since the lighting is already against them. I'm surprised that people are now telling me to just up and change with this new salt, so we'll see. I've never just changed overnight like that before and I'm really scared about it now. I know the salt is the issue for the pH and alk, but I'm not convinced about the nitrates ........
 

speg

Active Member
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/3296376
Did you do an abrupt change?
Not good. when changing salts you should wean your system off one kind to the other.
do a 75/25 first couple times. Then 50/50 and so on. Until you got your system used to the new stuff.
Your probably seeing the die off of your biological life in the tank. Could be at a microscopic level and at a macro level as well. This is a potential cause for the spike on your readings.
I'd like to know if there is any proof that changing salt brands slow or all at once does truly hurt the system. I've heard many people that just simply didn't know better switch salts all at once and had no issues. I took the advice I was given by Kent salt as the people there said that the rumor of salt changes doesn't seem to be true; I did a 50% water change with new salt and I swear my coral looked BETTER after doing it.
 

spanko

Active Member
Fluval FX5 with LR in it and Carbon
30G sump w/ carbon reactor, phosphate reactor and ASM G3 skimmer and bag of carbon and LR (don't remember how many pounds, it's not that much because the ASM is a monster)
we have a TON of asterina starfish lately
2 Sand Sifting Starfish (before you attack me, these guys are almost 3 years old and just fine)
Hey TommieLynn, sorry to hear you are having some concerns. So first off you say your nitrates will not go below 20. What were they previously? I doubt the change in salt mixture, especially after testing the change water prior to going into the tank showed nothing, is the culprit here.
While Kh is on the top end of an acceptable range (7 - 14 dKH) that should not be a problem unless this rise happened very quickly and was of significance. I am a bit perplexed here because with a dKH of 14 and a calcium reading of 400 I would think that you would be getting some kind of precipitation. But again, not too much to worry about on that reading. Will just throw in that if it did change quickly you may have had some die off of snails and other inverts because of it.
Now on to the LR in your canister and sump. I am not a fan of this technique. LR in a sump or canister will tend to accumulate detritus. As this detritus is consumed by the nitrifying bacteria it become nitrates and with nothing to convert it from there well you see a rise. (the proverbial nitrate factory, but it is doing what it is supposed to by nitrifying, only no denitrfying is occurring so hence a rise) Have you ever maintained the LR in the sump, ie. rinsed in tank change water to get rid of the detritus?
On the "TON" of asterina starfish, if this is a new phenomenon it is not out of the ordinary, they feed on detritus amongst other things and the population will wax and wave with available food sources.
And lastly here the sand sifting starfish. Two in a 155 gallon is IMO two too many. These critters live off the infauna in the sand bed and will over time decimate it. This infauna is of help to keep the tank clean of detritus and therefore a needed part of the tanks makeup.
As stated I don't think the change is salt is causing you nitrate readings, especially since you aren't seeing it in your testing. You have a rise in nitrates because you have an overabundance of protein breaking down in the tank above what you biofiltering capability is. I would start there and try to find the source of this, do some aggressive water changing like you have started. Check the LR in the sump for an accumulation of detritus and clean as needed. Run the skimmer a little "wetter" for some time. Change out the filter materials more often (pads - floss - socks etc.) Setting up the fuge is a good idea, especially with a heavily stocked tank like yours, along with some good macro algae to help absorb the nitrates. Remember here harvesting of the macro is required to remove the nitrates from the system.
JMO
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Originally Posted by Speg
http:///forum/post/3296482
I'd like to know if there is any proof that changing salt brands slow or all at once does truly hurt the system.
Then call it an old wives tale. But heard from people with more years than me in the hobby that its best to do it slowly.
I once did a 100% change from expensive Seachem to cheap reef crystals.
The whole tank loved the transition to the cheaper crap brand.I had overnight improvement.
But Ive also seen 100% overnight swaps to other brands, and produced stressed and dying corals.
It may not be an absolute rule, but its defiantly worth considering. Although by now, im sure we've all come to the conclusion that it wasn't the swap. Just happened to be timing.
 

btldreef

Moderator
So I'm fighting my husband on getting rid of the sand sifting starfish. He wants to keep them, but I'm ready for them to go. I'm thinking about getting rid of them and re-seeding the sand with the 20lbs that are in my 14G. I'm closing down my 14G for a little bit, at least getting rid of the sand in there, and doing a bare bottom tank. The two fish and the pistol shrimp in the 14G are going in the refugium, at least that's the plan as of this moment.
We got the refugium up and running now, with a handful or two of Caulerpa. Macro-algae is very foreign to me, I've never ventured into this before, so anyone who has tips, how to cultivate and harvest it (when to know when to harvest it), please give me your input.
We're running a 29G high for the refugium because that's what fits in the space at the moment, I plan on doing bigger once we move, but this will have to do for now.
Does anyone have any suggestions for other plants/macro-algae to put in the refugium (NOT CHAETO, I hate that stuff!). I've been looking at the Shaving Brush plants (Penicillus sp.) but not sure what else/if there's something better. I would love some colors, like colored kelp, but it never seems to be available anywhere.
 
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