Closing the new Frontier.

darthtang aw

Active Member
Closing the new frontier
By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, February 12, 2010
"We have an agreement until 2012 that Russia will be responsible for this," says Anatoly Perminov, head of the Russian space agency, about ferrying astronauts from other countries into low-Earth orbit. "But after that? Excuse me, but the prices should be absolutely different then!"
The Russians may be new at capitalism, but they know how it works. When you have a monopoly, you charge monopoly prices. Within months, Russia will have a monopoly on rides into space.
By the end of this year, there will be no shuttle, no U.S. manned space program, no way for us to get into space. We're not talking about Mars or the moon here. We're talking about low-Earth orbit, which the United States has dominated for nearly half a century and from which it is now retiring with nary a whimper.
Our absence from low-Earth orbit was meant to last a few years, the interval between the retirement of the fatally fragile space shuttle and its replacement with the Constellation program (Ares booster, Orion capsule, Altair lunar lander) to take astronauts more cheaply and safely back to space.
But the Obama 2011 budget kills Constellation. Instead, we shall have nothing. For the first time since John Glenn flew in 1962, the United States will have no access of its own for humans into space -- and no prospect of getting there in the foreseeable future.
Of course, the administration presents the abdication as a great leap forward: Launching humans will be turned over to the private sector, while NASA's efforts will be directed toward landing on Mars.
This is nonsense. It would be swell for private companies to take over launching astronauts. But they cannot do it. It's too expensive. It's too experimental. And the safety standards for getting people up and down reliably are just unreachably high.
Sure, decades from now there will be a robust private space-travel industry. But that is a long time. In the interim, space will be owned by Russia and then China. The president waxes seriously nationalist at the thought of China or India surpassing us in speculative "clean energy." Yet he is quite prepared to gratuitously give up our spectacular lead in human space exploration.
As for Mars, more nonsense. Mars is just too far away. And how do you get there without the stepping stones of Ares and Orion? If we can't afford an Ares rocket to get us into orbit and to the moon, how long will it take to develop a revolutionary new propulsion system that will take us not a quarter-million miles but 35 million miles?
To say nothing of the effects of long-term weightlessness, of long-term cosmic ray exposure, and of the intolerable risk to astronaut safety involved in any Mars trip -- six months of contingencies vs. three days for a moon trip.
Of course, the whole Mars project as substitute for the moon is simply a ruse. It's like the classic bait-and-switch for high-tech military spending: Kill the doable in the name of some distant sophisticated alternative, which either never gets developed or is simply killed later in the name of yet another, even more sophisticated alternative of the further future. A classic example is the B-1 bomber, which was canceled in the 1970s in favor of the over-the-horizon B-2 stealth bomber, which was then killed in the 1990s after a production run of only 21 (instead of 132) in the name of post-Cold War obsolescence.
Moreover, there is the question of seriousness. When John F. Kennedy pledged to go to the moon, he meant it. He had an intense personal commitment to the enterprise. He delivered speeches remembered to this day. He dedicated astronomical sums to make it happen.
At the peak of the Apollo program, NASA was consuming almost 4 percent of the federal budget, which in terms of the 2011 budget is about $150 billion. Today the manned space program will die for want of $3 billion a year -- 1/300th of last year's stimulus package with its endless make-work projects that will leave not a trace on the national consciousness.
As for President Obama's commitment to beyond-lunar space: Has he given a single speech, devoted an iota of political capital to it?
Obama's NASA budget perfectly captures the difference in spirit between Kennedy's liberalism and Obama's. Kennedy's was an expansive, bold, outward-looking summons. Obama's is a constricted, inward-looking call to retreat.
Fifty years ago, Kennedy opened the New Frontier. Obama has just shut it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021103484.html
 

bigarn

Active Member
Opens up a whole new frontier for insurance companies though.
Geico: We can save you 15 percent on your spacecraft insurance!
 

fishtaco

Active Member
I would like to see Nasa become part of the Air Force, if you think about it with China's I'm sure innocent space program it would make sense.
Fishtaco
 

bionicarm

Active Member
What happened to the aircraft that was replacing the shuttle? I recall they designed a new ship a few years back, and that's why they were ending the production of the current fleet.
As far as going to the moon - what for? What is to be gained by spending billions to land on a dead rock? How many trillions would be required to build that 'moon colony' all the Sci-Fier's have envisioned since the 60's? They supposedly found some form of 'water' on one of the moon's poles, but even if they did, how many decades would it take to validate it was potable or even useable to sustain life?
Space travel has always been an integral part of America's history. I grew up in the Age of Gemini and Apollo. I grew up in Houston, and had relatives who worked at NASA for as long as I can remember. I remember meeting Neil Armstrong when I was a kid (my uncle worked Mission Control for all the Apollo missions). I actually thought about going to college and majoring in aeronautical engineering just so I could get a job at NASA. But I leaned towards electronics and computers instead.
The space program is being shuttled as part of a backlash on our failing economy. Everyone wants cuts in federal spending. The benefits of studying the effects of how plants and rats ward of diseases while living in space don't justify the costs to do the experiments. It's cheaper to pay the Russians or Chinese to shuttle our scientists up to the Space Station to perform those tests, than it costs to build our own spacecraft to do it.
 

reefraff

Active Member
I see no up side in going back to the moon. I would perfect the space station where we could do a Mars mission launched from there. I think it would be a mistake to bring any material from another planet back to the earth but if we had a woopazz space station materials could be safely examined there.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...-+SciTech%2529
On the subject check this out...
I've been thinking about this actually, and if you take national security out of the picture, I'm not so sure it is better that the U.S. Govt gets out of the space business. They've been stuck on space shuttle since the 1980's. Privatizing stuff isn't all that bad after all... The Wright brothers didn't need the U.S. Govt to fly...
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3231559
It's cheaper to pay the Russians or Chinese to shuttle our scientists up to the Space Station to perform those tests, than it costs to build our own spacecraft to do it.

While it may be cheaper, is it wise? Would you be comfortable with the russians or chinese maintaining our military bases? It would be cheaper to pay the chinese and russians to fly our troops into battle as well, instead of maintaining the army airborne.
This is just another example of our country giving away a portion of ourselves. Every political problem we have, from deficit, national debt, lack of manufacturing jobs, and so forth is because we have sold a piece of ourselves to another country. This will just make us hat much more beholden to the countries of Russia and China.
Nasa over its history since 1958 has cost a total of just over 400 billion dollars. It is cheaper than every other program. The average budget over it's history is a little over 8 billion dollars a year. Last years budget was 17 billion. Cutting this portion from NASA, with the guise of "saving money" in my opinion will have more long term detrimental than the savings will be worth. People complain that we are sending our jobs over china.....well, what in the hell do you think this is doing? The Chnese can't even prevent high amounts of lead from getting in the toys they manufacture, and we want to trust them to fly our boys around in space?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3231881
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...-+SciTech%2529
On the subject check this out...
I've been thinking about this actually, and if you take national security out of the picture, I'm not so sure it is better that the U.S. Govt gets out of the space business. They've been stuck on space shuttle since the 1980's. Privatizing stuff isn't all that bad after all... The Wright brothers didn't need the U.S. Govt to fly...
The Space shuttle was about to be retired and replaced with Orion and one other space vehicle I can not think of at the moment.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3231943
The Space shuttle was about to be retired and replaced with Orion and one other space vehicle I can not think of at the moment.
I'm pretty familiar with it too, I'm a NASA Junkie. It was Constellation Program.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Private enterprise involved in space programs is great, but usually the government funds these, and sees no or little return.
http://www.spaceportamerica.com/news...newmexico.html
I am seeing this first hand, tax increases and budget shortfalls....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10467451/
Private enterprise is still years away from transporting astronaughts and such to space stations and satelites. Nasa accounts for .02% of our GDP. Cutting this seems to have higher risks to our national security and making us further reliant on other countries than leaving it does.
Just my opinion.
Private spaceflight as I said would be cool....but not in exchange for our national defense. Especially since the spaceport in New Mexico my tax dollars are helping build, will never be affordable enough for me to fly on. 150,000 a ticket is the price. I help build the place, but I can't fly on it. And some rich guy profits off my tax dollar to boot?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3236561
lol who's sounding like a Dem now?

I know, but it makes no sense to me. Taxation is necessary. I have no problem with reasonable taxes. Yet I have to wonder if this "budget cut" will result in loss of tax revenue and thus further increasing our deficit.
The problem I have with government cuts sometimes, is they never look at the tax revenue loss.
Example the railrunner train here in New Mexico. Operates at a loss. every governor candidate running for office next year has stated they will look at the train to make it atleast break even and what they need to do to increase ridership. it operates at 13 mil and brings in 2 mil. To break even will take a lot of work. But if it does break even how much tax revenue will the state lose due to less Gas station fill ups and in store purchase as the train will be utilized more with less drivers on the road. Basically the government is cutting their own throats and increasing the deficits without thinking it will.
 
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