clown fish

[tjg]

I have had a salt water tank for about 8 months now and have been trying to keep percula clown fish. I have lost 3 in the last 2 months. 2 died within days of each other. there seems to be no obvious sings of illness they just stop eating and hang around a certain rock and then die. please someone help!!! I have 4 blue damsels, several turbo snales, an algae blenny and a herment crab.
55 gal. tank
crushed coral
coral rock
wet/dry filter

 

[timsedwards]

first things first - post all your test results. How often are you feeding? Is your LFS reputable? Are you using RO/DI water?
Let us know then we can help you,
All the best,
Tim.

 

[tjg]

I'm new at salt water fish tanks. I used to have a fresh water tank 10 years ago and decided to pick it back up as a hobby this is my first salt water tank so please be patient with me. I had the water tested and a friend at the fish store said it was ok. I'm not useing R/O water and what is LSF. I feed 2 times a day with flakes every other day and frozen brine shimp on the other days only once a day

 

[timsedwards]

Hi there,
No problem we are all very patient! Its not so long ago i was new so I know what it feels like!
Well its difficult to say without knowing the exact results. LFS (=Local Fish Store) need to tell you exactly what the readings are, because you dont want ok, you want brill. And often a LFS' version of OK isnt what we would call OK! It is a worthwhile if not essential investment to get at least Nitrite, Nitrate, Ammonia and pH test kits to test regularly.
Its a GREAT idea to you RO (reverse Osmosisised) water, as that means the water is PERFECT. RO removes ALL impurities that regular tap water contains, like minor metals, chlorine, phosphates, traces of nitrates etc. Did you dechlorinate the water? Can you tell me the EXACT procedure you use to do water changes (when adding salt? temperature?) as I have a sneeky feeling that might ahve something to do with it.
You could probably slow down a little bit on the feeding - try and make it once a day. People will tell you different things, I feed mine once every other day.
Get back to me and I can continue to help,
Tim.

 

[tjg]

Hi Tim,
Thanks for your responce. I dont remember the results of the tests that the LFS said and that was months ago but I can tell you that the PH is 8.4 and the salt is .0124 I keep the temp. between 78 and 80. When I add water I don't usally use the drops but i guess i should, could this be problem? I have a kit to test the nitrate but have not used it yet. As far as adding salt I use regular marine salt from the LFS and add it to the supply end of the filter untill the salt levels come up but it did not get that bad only a couple of points. I'm also using GREENEX to treat ICK because i had 3 domino damsels that died from it. Next week I'm going to change the water, this will be the first time in almost a year I WILL use R/O water.
Thank you for all of your help and i look forward to more help I can get from you.
Tristan

 

[timsedwards]

Hi Tristan,
Right I can see a few problems. Firstly, you need to check Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate/pH every week. Some people recommend 2 or 3 times a week, but 1 a week is adequte. Water quality can change from perfect to astronimically bad over night, so its important to keep and eye on this.
Are you not dechlorinating the water? This is very important. You could be chemically burning the fish if you are not. Chlorine is added into our water to clean it basically and remove impurities for humans, but chlorine isnt found in natural water.
With Salt and adding water you should do it like this:
1) buy RO water from LFS
2)put it into a rubbermaid 10gallon or so, with heater and pump.
3)add salt in the rubbermaid and leave to air for 24/36 hours. This insures good chemical balances.
4)then add to tank.
If you are just putting the salt into the tank you are probably 1) stressing the fish tremendously 2)burning them. Dont feel bad about it, I did the same when i started, its something you overlook.
Greenex is funny, most people will say not to treat ick with reef safe chemicals, quaranteen is the best answer. Ick is being caused by stress and stress is being caused by your water conditions. Prevention is better than cure. Try feeding them a garlic suppliment, garlic is like a vitamin tablet for them and helps with their immunity.
Hope this is of some help, feel free to ask if still confused.
Tim.

 

[tjg]

H Tim,
Thanks, and I will try all of your advise. When I get the tank back up i'm going to get a few cheap test fish first to see if the tank is ok, thats after I do all the testing. I also want to get a under gravle filter to go along with what i already have, I dont think I have enough of a maitainence crew, I will probably get one of those packages from this site. Also I dont have anything live growing in the tank, plants or sand just coral rock not live coral. Thinking about in the future getting some plants and other neat creatures when I get the tank going good. The first stupid thing i did wrong was bleaching the rock to get rid of the algae and killed 3 big percula clowns. now i just let the algae grow and leave it up to the snails and the "rock hopper" and herment crab to do there job. I noticed that your test numbers were a little diffrent then mine are mine ok?
Thanks for all of your help
Tristan

 

[timsedwards]

Hi Tristan,
Yes your salt is fine (mine is too low but fish dont mind, only corals wouldnt like it), temp is good and pH is good (i am getting mine up to 8.4 too).
I would personally advise against an undergravel filter. Firstly it would disturb all of your gravel which you dont want to do. It will release ammonia and other toxins into your water. How deep is your sand? Is it live sand? You would be better of buying 20lbs of live sand and putting that on top of your original sand - then that will turn into a natural filter.
Yes maintainance crew are important, but wait until your parameters are ok, otherwise it could be money down the drain if they die!
My personal opinion is not to test the water with fish; I would buy test kits. You save lives that way (well fishy ones) and it is a long term solution. You really do need to regularly test Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite and pH, i cant stress that enough. Once we have readings on those we can try and pin-pointyour problem, as at the moment it is educated guesswork!
Was I right with the chlorine and the salt?
All the best,
Tim.

 

[tjg]

Hi Tim,
Yes you were right about both, never thought about live sand. I will use the tests instead of the fish. I will test the tank tommorrow and give you the reading. Maybe we can pin point this thing.
thanks again
Tritan

 

[timsedwards]

Hi Tristan,
Yes together we will find the problem and sort it for you. Hopefully the sooner you can give me results the better
Live sand is very very good. I initially didnt have live sand, I had some really rubbish coral gravel. When changing that to coral 'dead' sand, I totally spiked (marine term for all parameters going crazy and lethal) and lost a lot of stuff. Since then I had 40lbs of 'dead' sand and I have simply added by placing on top, 20lbs of live sand. Live sand will then 'seed' the dead sand, eventually making it all 'live'. By live I mean it is fall of denitrifying bacteria which is very good as a natural filter for your reef. It is important mind you to not disturb the sand (even if there is algae!) as this will disrupt the system.
Let me know how you get on, if you are on MSN messenger my email is in my sig and feel free to add me if you would like some quicker advice!
All the best,
Tim.

 

[tjg]

Hi Tim,
What I have is coral gravel, plastic and that cloth type plants i dont have anything live in the tank i didn't want to go that far and lose everything. you think i should get rid of the gravel and get dead sand then live sand on top and forget the under gravel filter.
thanks
Tristan
55 gal. tank
crushed coral
coral rock
wet/dry filter
4 blue damsel, 4 tubo snails, 1 hermit crab, 1 lawnmower blenny

 

[timsedwards]

well you dont have to have dead sand first, in fact it is ideal to have 100% live sand rather than 40% or something.
This would be a big task, but I would like to suggest that maybe you start again with your tank? If you having nothing live in it, it gives you the ideal opportunity to get the right substrate (sand) and the right water? What do you think? I definately think you should forget the UGF if you want a natural deep sand bed (which you do ) as that will itself act as a biological filter.
Well its 00:45am here in UK so I am off to bed but I will check this thread in the morning and reply to any questions you might have.
ALl the best,
Tim.

 

[beth]

Hey, Tim, you seem to be doing well helping out on this thread. I'm going to move it over to New Hobbyist Forum.
But, before I do, 2 thoughts:
Before starting up a new aquarum again take a few weeks to read and learn. Robert Fenner's book, "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" would be a book that I would read from cover to cover if I were new to the hobby....and even if I weren't! Also, stay tuned in to SWF.com. Ask questions, and, using the Search Feature, look up info.
Also, clowns can not just thrown into an aquarium. More frequently than not all but 1 or 2 will die....unless you really have the right set up and you know what you are doing.
Moved to New Hobbyists Forum

 

[gatorcsm]

tjg,
You said your S.G. was 1.0124. What is the S.G. of your LFS's water and how are you acclimating your fish? My LFS keeps the gravity at 1.026 so if that was the case with you, that would be a tremendous change, possibly extremely rapid.
Gator

 

[javatech]

here is some more info for you
http://www.simplifiedreefkeeping.com/faq/faq.htm

 

[timsedwards]

HI guys and Tristan,
It seems Tristan was adding plain water (not dechlorinated and not salty!) and then adding salt direct into the tank. This I think is the cause of the problem. Also we need to find out what his parameters are and we can work from there. Ive suggested that seeing as he has had this problem and there is nothing alive in there, it might be a good opportunity to make good of a bad situation and change a few things, like the substrate.
Anyone else in agreement with me on the UGF?
Well, time for change I think and I its (sadly) as a result of our mistakes we learn, I have made huge mistakes in my timebut thanks to the guys on his and couple of my mentors (!) I am really picking up and my tank looks 10000x better for it.
All the the best and looking forward to those results.
Tim.

 

[timsedwards]

I would second that Terry, ive got 2 good books but this forum is the greatest resource I ahve ever found. 10,000 people nearly, about 20% or so who are experts in every sense. The search feature on this forum is great and stops you asking questions all the time if you dont wish to. Having said that I am always here to answer them (or try to)
Tim.

 

[tjg]

hi everyone,
thanks for so much help, i'm working on geting the water tests done as we speak, will post them later. I think you are all right I should read and learn more before I venture futher. For now I'm just going to start over and clean the tank out, get new gravel and plants. When I start again I will use all of you suggetions and start with R/O water and only use that water. I dont want to try live rocks or sand at this point, I need to learn more before I go to there. I just noticed yesterday that the BLUE DAMSELS have ICK so I'm working on that.
Thanks for all the help.
Tristan

 

[timsedwards]

Hey Tristan!
Well thats a positive step forward. When you say plants, what exactly do you mean?
The best things is to put what you think up on the board and we cna tell you whether we think its a good idea or not. Obviously your choice at the end of the day!
Do think about at least live rock if not live sand too. Live rock is (IMO) an essential element of your tank.
All the best and speak soon,
Tim.

 

[pakman]

The most important thing that you need to understand about livestock (fish) is that they can get easilly stressed out. Damsels can often stress other fish out such as clowns. Also make sure you keep a repetitive cycle. Feed your fish the same time everyday. Get a timer for your light so they have the same amount of light and dark everyday( i do 8 1/2 hours of light to keep algae down). Change the water the same amount and same time every month. Make sure that the temp in the water doesnt fluctuate too much do to open doors or greenhouse effect. These are little thing that neeeeed to be understoosd and will stess fish out. If a fish gets ick and survives then he is in it for the long haul. good luck and study b4 u buy it will save u a lot of $. Also live rock is a good thing it helps filter your tank and requires virtually not upkeep.