Coraline algae

S

stevo81

Guest
Hi everyone
I have 3 years old tank nitrates 0.7 phos 0.02 mag 1400 cal 440 i have only spores of coraline on the rocks it doesnt spread and get bigger i do small wc 10% amonth the reef is 160 liter my question is im i out of trace elements cause.i dont dose trace elements ?
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
what salt mix are you using?

Sometimes you have to get back to basics... larger water changes,, detritus removal,... weekly water tests and balancing. checking your alkalinity and making it stable will go a long way towards encouraging coralline algae growth.

also, check your top off water to make sure that it is as pure as possible... and read a lighting article to make sure you have the right lights to grow coralline algae. it's really not difficult to do it once you get the hang of it. sometimes all it takes is a little bit of hands on maintenance.
 
S

stevo81

Guest
I have one t5 14k 24watt and one actinic does one t5 weak for coraline ?
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo81 http:///t/396858/coraline-algae#post_3535882
I have one t5 14k 24watt and one actinic does one t5 weak for coraline ?

Hello, and welcome to the site!

Your lighting is fine. Check your calcium levels...if you keep your calcium between 400 and 500 your coralline algae will grow. Most salt mixes don't have enough calcium in it, reef salt mixes have more, since many corals also need it to build their skeleton.

A little trick to get the spores going is to take a new toothbrush (mark it fish only), and in front of a power head, scrub the coralline areas on the rock. If you do that, and make sure of calcium levels, you will have plenty of it all over the place.
 
S

stevo81

Guest
Thnx mates
The cal is 430
another question does coraline needs to dose trance elements cause all para are fine except of trace elements that i dont dose?
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo81 http:///t/396858/coraline-algae#post_3535892
Thnx mates
The cal is 430
another question does coraline needs to dose trance elements cause all para are fine except of trace elements that i dont dose?
Hi,

Never dose a thing until you do the test to find out if you even need to. The test kits tell you what optimum number the readings should be...make the numbers match as close as possible...regular water changes will usually take care of any trace elements needed. Whatever you do, don't just dose willy-nilly, as many trace elements are poison if it's too high.

There are iodine,magnesium and iron tests ...pretty much anything you may need can be tested for...otherwise unless the test says you are low...don't do it.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396858/coraline-algae#post_3535927

That purple up is loaded with calcium and is essentially just dosing calcium...can you explain how alkalinity affects coralline? LOL...In terms I can understand it professor, please...Thanks.
I'll take a shot, Flower. Corals do not use calcium to form their skeletons directly (that is, the skeleton is not pure precipitated calcium). Instead, they convert bicarbonate into carbonate, which complexes with calcium to form calcium carbonate, which is the material they lay down to form skeletons (and which coralline uses, too). Alkalinity is a reflection of the amount of bicarbonate available in the water, so higher alkalinity (in addition to resisting changes in pH better) provides more carbonate for corals and coralline algae to use for growth.`"Adequate" calcium in the presence of insufficient alkalinity is just another way to get calcium deficiency.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Put into simpler terms,...
Calcium + carbonate = calcium carbonate.
They have to be well balanced and stable for organisms to use it.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/396858/coraline-algae#post_3535946
I'll take a shot, Flower. Corals do not use calcium to form their skeletons directly (that is, the skeleton is not pure precipitated calcium). Instead, they convert bicarbonate into carbonate, which complexes with calcium to form calcium carbonate, which is the material they lay down to form skeletons (and which coralline uses, too). Alkalinity is a reflection of the amount of bicarbonate available in the water, so higher alkalinity (in addition to resisting changes in pH better) provides more carbonate for corals and coralline algae to use for growth.`"Adequate" calcium in the presence of insufficient alkalinity is just another way to get calcium deficiency.

UUUGGG...I will never be a chemist... okay...carbonate mixes with calcium, that is what coralline algae and coral skeletons are made of?????? When we measure alkalinity....that tells me how much "carbonate" is in the water to mix with the calcium I dose????
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396858/coraline-algae#post_3535948

UUUGGG...I will never be a chemist... okay...carbonate mixes with calcium, that is what coralline algae and coral skeletons are made of?????? When we measure alkalinity....that tells me how much "carbonate" is in the water to mix with the calcium I dose????
I think you are a chemist, you just don't know it
. Right - carbonate mixes with calcium to make calcium carbonate, which is the major component of coral skeletons. The alkalinity measurement issue is a little more complex, since it actually measures to total resistance to pH change, but that is mostly due to bicarbonate, so alkalinity is close enough to bicarbonate for purposes of saltwater hobbyists. If your alkalinity falls, it doesn't matter whether if there is enough calcium in the water - the corals (and coralline algae) won't be able to use it because they can't convert it into calcium carbonate..
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/396858/coraline-algae#post_3535950
I think you are a chemist, you just don't know it
. Right - carbonate mixes with calcium to make calcium carbonate, which is the major component of coral skeletons. The alkalinity measurement issue is a little more complex, since it actually measures to total resistance to pH change, but that is mostly due to bicarbonate, so alkalinity is close enough to bicarbonate for purposes of saltwater hobbyists. If your alkalinity falls, it doesn't matter whether if there is enough calcium in the water - the corals (and coralline algae) won't be able to use it because they can't convert it into calcium carbonate..

LOL...I parroted back to you...the ONLY thing I understood of what you said was that the two combine...and if there isn't enough calcium AND alkalinity, then the coralline nor coral benefit.

Snake is correct...anything more just confuses me.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member

LOL...I parroted back to you...the ONLY thing I understood of what you said
And you parroted it back just fine. Too many of my college senior students parrot, too, but don' get it right.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
GeriDoc & Snake explained it better than I could have.


I do want to go just a bit further to explain why I believe stable Carbonate Alkalinity is even more important than Calcium. I'll try to use a hypothetical reef system as an example.

Let's start water levels near what a natural reef would experience; Ca = 420ppm, ALK = 125ppm.

My assumptions are:
90% of the ALK is from Carbonate
The coral growth removes 20ppm Calcium per day
Coral skeleton is about 50/50 Calcium and Carbonate
Corals stop growing and show stress when ALK dips below 75ppm
Corals stop growing and show stress when Ca dips below 200ppm
Corals begin to dissolve and die when ALK dips below 50ppm
Corals begin to dissolve and die when Ca dips below 150ppm


Day 1 - Ca=420 ALK=125 Corals are fine
Day 2 - Ca=400 ALK=105 Corals are fine
Day 3 - Ca=380 ALK=85 Corals are fine
Day 4 - Ca=360 ALK=65 Corals have stopped growing and are stressed
Day 5 - Ca=340 ALK=45 Corals are dying
Day 6 - Ca=340 ALK=45 Corals are dying Levels will not drop lower than this because the corals are no longer building skeleton


As you can see, Ca is never low enough to harm the corals but ALK quickly got down to fatal levels.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/396858/coraline-algae#post_3535992
GeriDoc & Snake explained it better than I could have.


I do want to go just a bit further to explain why I believe stable Carbonate Alkalinity is even more important than Calcium. I'll try to use a hypothetical reef system as an example.

Let's start water levels near what a natural reef would experience; Ca = 420ppm, ALK = 125ppm.

My assumptions are:
90% of the ALK is from Carbonate
The coral growth removes 20ppm Calcium per day
Coral skeleton is about 50/50 Calcium and Carbonate
Corals stop growing and show stress when ALK dips below 75ppm
Corals stop growing and show stress when Ca dips below 200ppm
Corals begin to dissolve and die when ALK dips below 50ppm
Corals begin to dissolve and die when Ca dips below 150ppm


Day 1 - Ca=420 ALK=125 Corals are fine
Day 2 - Ca=400 ALK=105 Corals are fine
Day 3 - Ca=380 ALK=85 Corals are fine
Day 4 - Ca=360 ALK=65 Corals have stopped growing and are stressed
Day 5 - Ca=340 ALK=45 Corals are dying
Day 6 - Ca=340 ALK=45 Corals are dying Levels will not drop lower than this because the corals are no longer building skeleton


As you can see, Ca is never low enough to harm the corals but ALK quickly got down to fatal levels.

LOL...I'm going to regret this, I just know it.

I understand that low calcium won't do as much damage as low alkalinity...from what I understand of the very last sentence (marked in red).


HOWEVER, you are using numbers like 125...105...85..down to 45. My test kit says to measure the drops, and divide the number by 20...and the instructions say good reef conditions are 2.5 alkalinity...that's a huge leap from 125...105...85 and on down to 45.......???????

I'm not a total idiot, I do understand that test kits are most likely different and they measure different types or concentrates of whatever...but Snake did warn you that I would get confused...and he was right. I'm pretty sure the line marked in red will get me through enough to understand what's important.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
I think in bangs example, he is using kH for alkalinity.

alkalinity can be measured using different scales... kH, dKH, ppm and mEQ/L are just four of the ways to measure it. I prefer to use dKH or mEQ/L because that is what I started with when I began the hobby.

kH is karbonate hardness
dKH is degrees of karbonate hardness
ppm is of course parts per million
mEQ/L is milequivalents per liter


they all measure the same thing. alkalinity. they are just using different units or scales to measure it.

in each scale range there is a magic number to keep both calcium and alkalinity at...

460ppm ca, 175-200kH
460ppm ca, 10 dKH
460ppm ca, ? ppm - don't know of the top of my head.
460oom ca, 4.0mEQ/L

but, if your calcium and alkalinity can't stabilize no matter what you do or add,... then you have to look at your magnesium levels to see if it is too low. magnesium is the element that helps to 'ferry' the calcium and alkalinity into the corals and make it able to be used. it also stabilizes ca and alk. (in a nutshell)
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396858/coraline-algae#post_3536021
I think in bangs example, he is using kH for alkalinity.

alkalinity can be measured using different scales... kH, dKH, ppm and mEQ/L are just four of the ways to measure it. I prefer to use dKH or mEQ/L because that is what I started with when I began the hobby.

kH is karbonate hardness
dKH is degrees of karbonate hardness
ppm is of course parts per million
mEQ/L is milequivalents per liter


they all measure the same thing. alkalinity. they are just using different units or scales to measure it.

in each scale range there is a magic number to keep both calcium and alkalinity at...

460ppm ca, 175-200kH
460ppm ca, 10 dKH
460ppm ca, ? ppm - don't know of the top of my head.
460oom ca, 4.0mEQ/L

but, if your calcium and alkalinity can't stabilize no matter what you do or add,... then you have to look at your magnesium levels to see if it is too low. magnesium is the element that helps to 'ferry' the calcium and alkalinity into the corals and make it able to be used. it also stabilizes ca and alk. (in a nutshell)
Hi,

I knew he wasn't using dKH to measure, because like your example showed...would be around 10, so I did knew it was a different type of test kit.

I purchased a magnesium test, and I never needed to dose that. I think if you do regular water changes, the magnesium is pretty spot on. The only way I can think of that going to pot is if you never do changes and have to dose the tank to keep all the levels up.

The alkalinity thing however is an eye opener, I had no idea just how important that particular element is, nor if it went too low how dangerous it is. Curious, what happens if you have too much alkalinity? Aside from salt creep deposits.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Too much bicarbonate or carbonate causes calcium precipitation. It will make your tank go white and drop your calcium levels very low. It takes quite a bit more alk to do it though.
 
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