CPR CS102 Return Pumps..

jrse7en

Member
KK I ordered me a CPR CS102 to use for my 55g reef. I'm using 2 10gs underneath, one for sump and one for refugium. For those that don't know the overflow comes with 2 bulkheads instead of one. My question is about the return pump for the refugium? Do return pumps come with a throttle to regulate how much needs to get sent back or are they all prorated out of the box? I'd like to keep my refugium run at a slower rate then the sump <via inline valve> if needed. I heard its better to keep the water in the refugium run slower for less turbulence. Should I get two of the same size return pumps or one that is smaller for the refugium?
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jrse7en
http:///forum/post/3119618
KK I ordered me a CPR CS102 to use for my 55g reef. I'm using 2 10gs underneath, one for sump and one for refugium. For those that don't know the overflow comes with 2 bulkheads instead of one. My question is about the return pump for the refugium? Do return pumps come with a throttle to regulate how much needs to get sent back or are they all prorated out of the box? I'd like to keep my refugium run at a slower rate then the sump <via inline valve> if needed. I heard its better to keep the water in the refugium run slower for less turbulence. Should I get two of the same size return pumps or one that is smaller for the refugium?
Way overkill on the overflow. Get the small CPR overflow and a Aqualifter pump. The aqualifter hooks on to the top of the overflow to pull the air bubbles out of it. Thats the only way to keep from losing siphon on those when you have low flow running to the sump.
 

reefraff

Active Member
On the return pump a Mag 5 will probably be about right. I would still plumb in a valve on THE OUTLET SIDE of the pump so you can fine tune your flow.
 

jrse7en

Member
I'm sure the overflow will work nice, they do get overrated and i'm also dividing the flow in half between the two tanks. It would be the same as having 2 600gph at max flow. I think i'll use 2 valves on the refugium tank to fine tune a little bit.
 

scsinet

Active Member
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/364105/2-overflows-doable
I'm assuming that you stopped responding on your other thread because you didn't like what you were hearing. That's fine, I don't have some sort of demanded expectation that people take my advice.

But I will warn you once again that this configuration will not work. You can't divide a gravity drain between two otherwise unconnected sumps, then use two return pumps. At best, you'll have to make constant adjustments to try to make it work, at worst, you'll flood or burn up a pump from running it dry.
 

jrse7en

Member
Took a bit of concentration to get the info to sink in. Sorry SCSI I wasn't ignoring other threads. Getting the tanks drilled tommorrow. Where would be the reccommended spot to drill holes in these 2 tanks. One guy said to drill the overflow tank at the top and the return tank at the bottom. Will the pump be able to pull water over a baffle? Sorry for being a slow learner.
 

scsinet

Active Member
Sorry for being blunt, I just know a lot of new hobbyists who insisted on going routes similar to this, trying to "balance" drains and returns using valves, and it always ends badly. I myself completely ignored all the advice I was given to the contrary when I started out, and I always had flooding problems. One guy finally told me "open the drain valves up all the way" and said "trust me, it'll just work." Well I did and only then did it occur to me WHY it works that way. Once you understand how overflows work, it makes perfect sense.
I don't want to see folks make the same mistakes I did.
Okay so I drew up a professional-looking diagram of how I would set up your system. Let me walk you through it.
Basically, you have your fuge on the left and your sump on the right. Quite right, you don't want to run ALL of your flow through the fuge. So here is how I solved that...
The blue lines represent the drain from the tank. If your overflow has two bulkheads, they should be combined into one large line PRIOR to this diagram. Orient your pipe in a horizontal run along the underside of your tank stand. Above the fuge, install a "T" with the outlet pointing DOWN. Drop down to a valve (1).
Then, extending horizontally, you can optionally install a second valve (2) that you would normally leave open ALL THE WAY, closing it only for maintenance.
If your overflow has (2) 1" bulkheads, I'd combine them into a single 1.5" line. The drop to the fuge can be reduce to 1" or 3/4", but the entire horizontal run to the sump should be the full 1.5. This means that you can close the fuge valve entirely and the rest of the drain system could handle the entire flow if you wanted it to.
With the drop to the fuge extending downwards from the drain run, it will work so that only the water that you allow through the (1) valve will pass, the rest will continue onto the sump. Again, leaving (2) wide open except for maintenance will allow you complete control of the flow to your fuge, diverting what you DON'T send to the fuge to the sump.
Connecting the fuge and the sump is a piece of pipe, at least equal to the size of the drain line feeding the fuge. The fuge is drilled at the desired water level, and it connects to a hole near the bottom of the sump. This allows the water in the fuge to rise to the desired water level, then be drained down to the sump, creating and overflow in the fuge.
Finally, notice that the drain line to the sump is brought in on the far right, and that between it and the fuge inlet on the far left (of the sump), is the skimmer and return pump.
The return pump (3) is located between the skimmer and the fuge outlet. This is intentional. It maximizes the chances of the water flowing into the sump from the fuge gets picked up by the pump instead of going through the skimmer, which is less than ideal. Conversely, the skimmer picks up water flowing mostly from the drain on the right.
I'm actually working on a 120g reef system at the moment that includes plumbing very similar to this. I can take pics if needed, but I don't have my camera at home atm, so let me know if this all makes sense to you.
If you really want to do this right, you can also install a baffle between the skimmer and return pump. This will ensure that the skimmer does not process water from the fuge. The tradeoff is that you have less "reserve" water for evaporation loss, but many will argue that it's worth it.
 

jrse7en

Member
Wow! Your the greatest! I really appreciate your input! I'm going to my LFS today where ill take my tanks to them and have them build it that way. Once I get all my equipment from UPS by the weekend ill start snapping pictures to shop my progression.
 

jrse7en

Member
What size return pump would you recommend for this setup? I think being able to limit the flow on the refugium could throw off the pump a little bit. Do pumps come with a throttle?
 
G

gwhunter

Guest
I'll echo what the other's have said. Don't get this large of an overflow. I've got this unit on my 90g and it's almost too much. I was going with the same mentality as you more is better. I'm running a rio hyperflow 26 as a return and have to throttle it a ton. The best method I've found is to change over to pvc and the put a ball valve in the return line. The cpr is very well built but make sure you get a spare lifter pump. If you do a search on reviews they all say the same that the lifter pump will fail. Why are you getting the overflow if you tank is drilled?
Matt
 

scsinet

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jrse7en
http:///forum/post/3121823
What size return pump would you recommend for this setup? I think being able to limit the flow on the refugium could throw off the pump a little bit. Do pumps come with a throttle?
With the plumbing setup diagrammed above, the flow through the fuge won't matter.
In the end, the main drain going across and down to the sump will be able to handle 100&#37; of the system flow. The fuge valve allows you to tap that flow and divert a portion of it to the fuge, but even if you close the fuge valve off, you'll still have the full flow, just going to the sump.
So if 100% of the flow goes to the sump, fine. 100% flow.
If you allow 30% of it go through the fuge, the other 70% flows to the sump. 100% flow
If you allow 50% to go to the fuge, 50% will go to the sump, 100% flow.
No matter what, the amount of water that ends up in the sump is the same, whether it went through the fuge or went straight to the sump. Either way, you're golden.
CPR overflows are something I've got quite a bit of experience with, and I found that their butter zone is about 80% of manufacturer rating. If CPR rates the flow at 1200GPH, then expect to get about 950gph through it, so you need to size your return pump accordingly. I'd use a Mag12 for this, as it's rated for 1200gph, and minus head pressure loss, it'll probably come out around 1000gph. Then you'll use a ball valve on the pump's outlet to dial back the flow to what you want to get.
Still though... didn't you say this is a 55g tank? Hunter has a point... that's a lot of flow. Personally I do not recommend trying to use the main filtration loop to accomplish your flow objective. The main filtration system need only have enough flow to support your filtration needs. If your skimmer runs at say... 300gph (this would be a LOT for a skimmer), and your fuge you want 10x turnover (100gph), that's only 400gph you need to run through your filtration system. Any more than that only causes noise, splashing, and salt creep in your filtration area.
There is nothing WRONG with doing it your way - with a big overflow and big pump - I just personally find it easier and more flexible to size your overflow and return pump for the filter, not the flow, and use powerheads to get you to where you want to be flow-wise, because powerheads can be placed anywhere and are nice and quiet.
I'd use a CS90 (CS100 is WAY overrated given it's bulkhead size), and a Mag7 return pump. I've personally used this arrangement on a 55g reef and had great results. To get your flow, stick a Koralia or 2 in there.
 

jrse7en

Member
Things are going well so far. Last night I spent a few hours at the LFS talking to someone who has alot of experience building aquariums all over the world. His names Gary didn't catch his last name. He drilled my tanks and reccommended pumps and different techniques. He basically told me theres alot of different ways to do what I need to do, just how i go about doing it is different. I have the tanks drilled the same way you have in teh picture you made and that is the way I will make it. As far as my overflow and return pump goes, I have the CPR 102 and he reccommended a Mag7 I think which I also got from him. I told him I was going to dial down the flow, via ball valve, through the refugium and a Mag 7 is perfect.
The skimmer is pretty big rated for a 125g tank. I think everything is working out well. Maybe in a few years ill be able to move to a bigger tank. :p
 
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