Cupramine + Live Rock?
- Thread starter lucky?
- Start date
hot883
Active Member
Originally Posted by Lucky?
I recently used seachem's cupramine in my fish only tank, can i use it in a FOWLR tank. I don't think so but my humu trigger is driving me crazy. I don't want to give him up so I put him in my 75 fowlr and he's got velvet. Will the chemicals kill off my live rock?
Hopefully Beth sees this. She is our resident illness gal.
Did you search the disease thread?
Hopefully Beth sees this. She is our resident illness gal.
lucky?
Member
Yes I did search the archives, I saw that just about everyone is looking for her help. as you can see I'm nowhere near your 3400 posts, but i do have a 125 reef tank that is my pride and joy, a 240 fish only and my old original 75 that has provided nothing but problems since i started it back up 8 months ago. reef keeping is a love and hate hobby for me, nothing is more frustrating than dealing with a fish that you cause problems for. thanks for your reply.
You absolutely can not add copper to a tank with any LR or inverts in it, and you should not have added copper to a FO either. Copper will kill the biofilter of all tanks, and will kill off the microfuana that we pay so much for which makes our live rock "live".
I doubt your fish has velvet. Can you describe the symptoms? Post some pictures?
Here are some pictures to help you out and some info on setting up a Qt as well as info on ich.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127010/diseased-fish-pictures
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127007/faqs-fish-diseases-treatments-quarantine-health-info
I doubt your fish has velvet. Can you describe the symptoms? Post some pictures?
Here are some pictures to help you out and some info on setting up a Qt as well as info on ich.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127010/diseased-fish-pictures
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127007/faqs-fish-diseases-treatments-quarantine-health-info
lucky?
Member
thanks! I thought it was velvet but maybe it's just a bad case of ick. I had to fight this trigger for 2 hours to get him out of my 240 tank, which I must say had a very bad few days after a 6 inch atlantic blue tang got very sick and eventually died, my naso 8in, sohal 7in , faxface 8in, and trigger 6 in, all got symptoms of ick. I have a small qt but I couldn't medicate all these fish so I did the whole 240 gal and everyone survived(it is fish only and base rock) thank you for your reply, I should know better than to ask a q? like medicating a tank w Live rock, but I've had it with this tank and the trigger( he's just too cool).
kyfishguy
New Member
Sorry Beth but you are not correct. Cupramine does not kill the biofilter. It does however kill any and all inverts corals etc. People that get ammonia readings are false readings. You can research this more at seachems website. Anyone looking to do the 72 day fishless thing, cupramine is an awesome way to do it. Setup a tank throw a piece of live rock in it and dose cupramine. Dosing cupramine needs to be monitored by testing to ensure the dose stays high enough.
Downside is using that piece of live rock afterwards in a reef environment is risky and I would consider to be a full time cupramine rock. Might not be a good idea to use it for anything else.
This info is personal experience feel free to ask me any questions.
Downside is using that piece of live rock afterwards in a reef environment is risky and I would consider to be a full time cupramine rock. Might not be a good idea to use it for anything else.
This info is personal experience feel free to ask me any questions.
jay0705
Well-Known Member
Just my .02. I've used copper in my qt. I tried hypo for ich and it must have been me but I couldn't kill it off completely. I even used a refractomeater.so in aggravation I used copper. It worked and worked well. I then had a reef safe dotty back that thought my skunk shrimp were yummy!!!!! Reef safe my ass. But any way I put him in my qt,after totally emptying it. New water,sand,ECT. I then added a few hermits as a cuc. A month in there fine. Fine in a tank I had used cooper. I do have lr in the tank as well. Will cooper kill inverts? Yes no doubt. But when removed from the tank, the cooper remnants in the tank are not fatal in my experience
Copper does kill the biofilter. If you want to cushion the terminology and call it "retard", then ok. There is no safe way to use copper in a display tank.
Now I've experimented with hyposalinity and live rock and have not killed off the live rock or some of the inverts on the live rock, however that doesn't mean I'd recommend under any circumstances to subject a display tank to hypo with the live rock remaining in the system. Likewise, I have used copper in FO tanks. Did everything immediately die? No, but it does effect what is living in the tank, including the nitrifying filter. For FO particularly there is a much safer alternative.
You have bumped a topic that is over 7 years old to quote seachem's website?
Now I've experimented with hyposalinity and live rock and have not killed off the live rock or some of the inverts on the live rock, however that doesn't mean I'd recommend under any circumstances to subject a display tank to hypo with the live rock remaining in the system. Likewise, I have used copper in FO tanks. Did everything immediately die? No, but it does effect what is living in the tank, including the nitrifying filter. For FO particularly there is a much safer alternative.
You have bumped a topic that is over 7 years old to quote seachem's website?
jay0705
Well-Known Member
All my bristles did not. That was the main casualty. Pods didn't make it either but that could have been from the ammonia spike. I don't recommend treat the display tank ever. I tried hypo in qt and still was unable to rid ich from the tank or fish. Even w copper it had to be exact before the dam things didn't return
kyfishguy
New Member
Cupramine:
Yes beth I revived a 7 year old topic because I hate to see false information laying around the internet. Especially when it's coming from a moderator who people may or may not look up to when it comes to solid information. I think the problem is that you are confusing Cupramine with other coppers. I cannot speak on their behalf because I've never used them. Seachem claims to not disturb the filterbed on the product and they are telling the truth via tested experience. If you have not personally used a product why share second hand info about a product you know nothing about? Remember we are talking about Cupramine exclusively. Again the nitrogen cycle is not disturbed and will continue to function.
Jerry
Yes beth I revived a 7 year old topic because I hate to see false information laying around the internet. Especially when it's coming from a moderator who people may or may not look up to when it comes to solid information. I think the problem is that you are confusing Cupramine with other coppers. I cannot speak on their behalf because I've never used them. Seachem claims to not disturb the filterbed on the product and they are telling the truth via tested experience. If you have not personally used a product why share second hand info about a product you know nothing about? Remember we are talking about Cupramine exclusively. Again the nitrogen cycle is not disturbed and will continue to function.
Jerry
You make a lot of assumptions about what exp I have or don't have. Cupramine is not unknown to me. Cupramine is the only copper medication I do recommend using, but not in a display tank. Yes, people do rely on my advise in this forum but I don't think its because I'm a moderator. My advise is an exchange of information which hobbyists can either accept or reject wo offending me at all. My advise pertaining to this, and I speak through my own exp. as well as 13 yrs giving advise about fish diseases, is that it is best not to medicate a display tank. All coppers, including chelated copper and copper sulfate, though not equally toxic, are potentially harmful and best not used in a display. If you feel different, that's fine with me. The forum is here at your disposal to dispense advise as well. You are certainly encouraged and welcome to offer advise here.
kyfishguy
New Member
@Beth I totally agree with you on that. My original comment was very clear about using it as a QT medication and not be used in a display tank.
This thread is one of the first ones that pop up with 'live rock' and 'Cupramine' used in a search. Again I don't know if the older coppers kill the biofilter(nitrogen cycle). You originally said "Copper will kill the biofilter of all tanks" I personally know Cupramine doesn't. Biofilter to me means nitrogen cycle. I could be wrong.
In my mind when someone says "kill" that means that object is non existent or gone. In this situation kill is a very strong word and can be misunderstood. When I see 'kill' I assume the person is saying the tank is or will be cycleless. When using cupramine my tanks continued to have zero nitrites and continued nitrate accumulation thus ensuring the bio filter was intact.
Jerry
This thread is one of the first ones that pop up with 'live rock' and 'Cupramine' used in a search. Again I don't know if the older coppers kill the biofilter(nitrogen cycle). You originally said "Copper will kill the biofilter of all tanks" I personally know Cupramine doesn't. Biofilter to me means nitrogen cycle. I could be wrong.
In my mind when someone says "kill" that means that object is non existent or gone. In this situation kill is a very strong word and can be misunderstood. When I see 'kill' I assume the person is saying the tank is or will be cycleless. When using cupramine my tanks continued to have zero nitrites and continued nitrate accumulation thus ensuring the bio filter was intact.
Jerry
2quills
Well-Known Member
According to Seachem their cuprimine product may retard bio filtration. It also kills many inverts then goes on to say that ammonia detection may be because of "amines" in the product.. Their information doesn't sound very difinitive to me.
Infact, it seems that every one agrees its best not to treat the display tank. Seems like that was the very advice that Beth had been advising all along.
I guess I'm still waiting to see who's going to prove to me that cuprimine is the mirical product that allows you to treat a display tank with no ill effect.
Infact, it seems that every one agrees its best not to treat the display tank. Seems like that was the very advice that Beth had been advising all along.
I guess I'm still waiting to see who's going to prove to me that cuprimine is the mirical product that allows you to treat a display tank with no ill effect.
The biofilter is the bacteria that is found throughout the aquaria which acts as a natural filter. The nitrogen cycle is the process by which bacteria proliferates and breaks down organic wastes and its byproducts.
While Cupramine is by far the more stable and safe copper medication, it can interact with other chemicals and medications in the aquarium having an adverse effect. Its does effect the aquarium biofilter which could snowball in to an aquarium disaster given the right conditions. For the most part aquarists coming to this forum asking about parasites on their fish are not terribly knowledgeable about fish diseases, treatments, nor effects of medications on displays. Their first choice of action is to dose up the display tank, as is the case with this poster who is asking if it is ok to use Cupramine in a tank with live rock.
While Cupramine is by far the more stable and safe copper medication, it can interact with other chemicals and medications in the aquarium having an adverse effect. Its does effect the aquarium biofilter which could snowball in to an aquarium disaster given the right conditions. For the most part aquarists coming to this forum asking about parasites on their fish are not terribly knowledgeable about fish diseases, treatments, nor effects of medications on displays. Their first choice of action is to dose up the display tank, as is the case with this poster who is asking if it is ok to use Cupramine in a tank with live rock.
kyfishguy
New Member
@2Quills
-"According to Seachem their cuprimine product may retard bio filtration"
May is such a tricky word isn't it. In my case retardation went undetected. I've ran quite a few fish through curpamine (ie: hippo tang the mother of stressed fish) with no ill effects.
-"I guess I'm still waiting to see who's going to prove to me that cuprimine is the mirical product that allows you to treat a display tank with no ill effect."
You will be waiting a long time for that.
-"Seems like that was the very advice that Beth had been advising all along."
Right, I only disagreed with the biofilter part of what she said.
Jerry
-"According to Seachem their cuprimine product may retard bio filtration"
May is such a tricky word isn't it. In my case retardation went undetected. I've ran quite a few fish through curpamine (ie: hippo tang the mother of stressed fish) with no ill effects.
-"I guess I'm still waiting to see who's going to prove to me that cuprimine is the mirical product that allows you to treat a display tank with no ill effect."
You will be waiting a long time for that.
-"Seems like that was the very advice that Beth had been advising all along."
Right, I only disagreed with the biofilter part of what she said.
Jerry