Darn GFCI!!

sweatervest13

sweatervest13

Active Member
Hi all,
I came home late last night after visiting a friend from out of town and had planned on going right to bed. But I wanted to do a second feeding on my tank (125g). So downstairs I went to feed the fish. As soon as I opened the basement door I did not notice the familiar blue glow from the lights. I turn on the basement lights only to see that everything on the system was shut off. EVERYTHING!!
Long story short my GFCI tripped and everything for the tank and fish room is in series with the GFCI outlet. So all the equipment got turned off. I reset the outlet, things started to come back on, and POP, off again. Ugg!!
I have most of the equipment in my fish room right next to the tank and I have three power strips mounted to the wall for all the plugs. I shut them all off and reset the outlet and got the return pump plugged in ASAP. I was freaking out a little but I could see most of the fish hiding in the rockwork, that calmed me down a bit.
I started to plug in things one at a time and got to my pump for my algae scrubber. and POP!! The entire system was off again. So the algae scrubber is the issue.
Has anyone had a pump blow a GFCI like this?? Is the thing fried and garbage??
It was well after midnight after I got everything back running smoothly and the fish fed (they all came out to eat). The corals and inverts looked just fine. The wife said she was for sure in the basement and things were just fine at 6:00 pm. I noticed about 11:30 pm, so everything was off for no more then 5 1/2 hours. I checked the tank before going to work and everything looked good.
Is there anything I need to be worried about from the tank sitting without power for hours? Or once it was back and going, and all livestock is doing well, I am good to go??
IDK if it was too much load on the circuit, or just a pump gone bad. The system had run just fine for almost 2 years with the same equipment running.
Could the pump have gone bad from getting clogged?? It has only been like 3 months since I cleaned the pump (EcoPlus 396 gph).
 
sweatervest13

sweatervest13

Active Member
I need an Apex!! I think that this might help get the wife on board with spending the money. I am just so happy I decided not to go right to bed. I would have lost all my fish, coral, and inverts by the morning (I usually do not check the tank before work either).
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Hi,
You keep your tank in the basement, and have to go downstairs to look at it? My tanks are in plain view for me to enjoy, one in my bedroom and the other in the living room. Oh well, I guess that's just me...We each have our own way to do things.
My GFCI is rigged the same way yours is. My MH lights caused everything to trip. It turned out the Coralife MH elite (just one more reason to hate coralife) has a pulse or something stupid like that, and the GFCI is supposed to cut off the instant the electricity is inconsistent. So my chiller and the MH lights caused me grief. That being said, I put them on a power-strip with a surge protector and it solved my problem.
What makes me worried is the fact the scrubber used to work and now doesn't, and even with a power-strip, it still causes the outlet to trip. I would figure the pump/light or whatever makes the scrubber work... is toast, and you should replace it.
 
sweatervest13

sweatervest13

Active Member
Lol flower. its a nicely finished basement. I spend a decent amount of time down there.
I have a back up pump for the scrubber. unfortunately I can't swap it out until Friday. the new pump is a little larger so i need to modify the scrubber. I will take the scrubber out of the sump tonight though. Good idea on the surge protector. I think it was only in a power strip. Thanks for the help!!!
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Flower: Surge protectors serve a different purpose than GFCI's. I have another theory which may be the contributor to why your halides started tripping your gfci but I don't think it's the fault of the pulse start ballasts. Many folks are running those on GFCI's.
It probably has more to do with the amount of load that has already been carried on that circuit over time with all of the tank equipment that you have plugged into it. Electronic ballast draw large amounts of current on initial start up. More electrical current means more heat. Think of your oven or stove top cooking elements and how they glow red when you turn them up high.
Your situation may have worked for a while at first. But the longer and longer you run your electrical components to the max that heat that is generated from the flow of current causes electrical components to wear out and degrade. When GFCI's start getting too worn out they start to become more and more sensitive and prone to false tripping. So I believe your situation is more of a matter of one issue potentially leading to the tripping issues you started seeing later on down the road.....GFCI starts getting wore out so it begins to start tripping when ever the ballasts kick on because those ballast induce the heaviest load on the circuit.
I know it's not a typical ground fault that gfci's are designed to catch but I've been witness to this, myself on numerous occasions when I've tried plugging in large power tools or equipment on an old gfci. But if I move it to a new one it works just fine. Replace the GFCI and the false tripping is solved. But pushing your house hold electrical circuits above and beyond 80% of their maximum rating is another discussion.
Now on to Sweatervests issue. This sounds more like a classic ground fault situation. You could try removing the pump and letting it dry out and then plug it in dry and see if it runs/sounds normal. If it's not FRIED (for real) then it may still serve some small purpose as an external pump. But current leakage is never a good sign.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/395080/darn-gfci#post_3516776
Flower: Surge protectors serve a different purpose than GFCI's. I have another theory which may be the contributor to why your halides started tripping your gfci but I don't think it's the fault of the pulse start ballasts. Many folks are running those on GFCI's.
It probably has more to do with the amount of load that has already been carried on that circuit over time with all of the tank equipment that you have plugged into it. Electronic ballast draw large amounts of current on initial start up. More electrical current means more heat. Think of your oven or stove top cooking elements and how they glow red when you turn them up high.
Your situation may have worked for a while at first. But the longer and longer you run your electrical components to the max that heat that is generated from the flow of current causes electrical components to wear out and degrade. When GFCI's start getting too worn out they start to become more and more sensitive and prone to false tripping. So I believe your situation is more of a matter of one issue potentially leading to the tripping issues you started seeing later on down the road.....GFCI starts getting wore out so it begins to start tripping when ever the ballasts kick on because those ballast induce the heaviest load on the circuit.
I know it's not a typical ground fault that gfci's are designed to catch but I've been witness to this, myself on numerous occasions when I've tried plugging in large power tools or equipment on an old gfci. But if I move it to a new one it works just fine. Replace the GFCI and the false tripping is solved. But pushing your house hold electrical circuits above and beyond 80% of their maximum rating is another discussion.
How long does it take for a GFCI to get "old"? I had my GFCI outlets installed 4 or 5 years ago. I had quad outlets installed in 4 areas around my 90g tank, 2 upper and 2 lower. They are on 2 different lines of conduit leading to my breaker box. I don't use Metal Halides anymore, but hearing that the GFCI outlets start tripping out after such a short time worries me. The biggest thing running on them now is the 1/10 HP chiller.
I know surge protectors has a different purpose, but putting the lights on it did stop it from tripping out. ...The lines to the 90g should not have been overloaded, the GFCIs were only 3 years installed when I had the MH connected..
At the moment, I have (on both tanks) all of my pumps and the chillers connected to a surge protected power strip so I can shut everything off with a button to feed the seahorses 2xs a day. The tanks are in different rooms on their own circuits and nothing is tripping, but for how long?
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/395080/darn-gfci#post_3516846
How long does it take for a GFCI to get "old"? I had my GFCI outlets installed 4 or 5 years ago. I had quad outlets installed in 4 areas around my 90g tank, 2 upper and 2 lower. They are on 2 different lines of conduit leading to my breaker box. I don't use Metal Halides anymore, but hearing that the GFCI outlets start tripping out after such a short time worries me. The biggest thing running on them now is the 1/10 HP chiller.
I know surge protectors has a different purpose, but putting the lights on it did stop it from tripping out. ...The lines to the 90g should not have been overloaded, the GFCIs were only 3 years installed when I had the MH connected..
At the moment, I have (on both tanks) all of my pumps and the chillers connected to a surge protected power strip so I can shut everything off with a button to feed the seahorses 2xs a day. The tanks are in different rooms on their own circuits and nothing is tripping, but for how long?
It just depends. It only takes one bad surge or a short sometimes to do damage to electrical devices. You may very well not have had them over loaded. But I've seen GFCI's even in newly constructed homes go bad and need replacing only after a few years. Just like equipment, sometimes you can get a lemon.
Just out of curiosity, I remember you saying that you had a heater go bad in your tank and kill off most of the tank. Did it happen to be on the same circuit that you had your halides plugged into? Meaning, were they plugged into one of the gfci's that were on the same line of conduit that the heater that went bad was on?
 
sweatervest13

sweatervest13

Active Member
They system has been running fine since the incident. I removed the scrubber and the bad pump last night. The stagnant water left in the PVC of the scrubber stank really bad. I made sure not do have any spill over in the sump. Since the scrubber is out and offline I think I will mod it a bit. I am interested in researching the upflow design. Right now the scrubber takes up a lot of real estate and is quite tall.
After thinking about why this happened, I feel that it was just a pump gone bad. I recently went from MH and T5's to LEDs. The combo units each had 4 plugs and there were three, now the LEDs have 1 plug each, for two units. There is a lot less draw on the outlets than before.
I was very happy with the results from running an algae scrubber, so I do want to get something running before too long. Does anyone have any good links for the upflow algae scrubber?? I want to try to make a decision on how I want to go forward pretty quick here.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Flower, there is just no way it is safe to run lights, heater, powerheads, etc. in an aquarium without GFCI.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/395080/darn-gfci#post_3516853
Flower, there is just no way it is safe to run lights, heater, powerheads, etc. in an aquarium without GFCI.
I 100% agree...Does the surge protector/power strip override the GFCI?
I have the strip connected to the GFCI, only the return pump, the HOB filter (for big stuff) and chiller are on it, and the rest of the equipment, skimmer, nitrate filter, power heads and such including the light system is connected directly to the GFCI outlets and run from the sump. I have to turn off the filters 2Xs a day to feed the seahorses so only the top filter items are connected to the power strip. The seahorses like to chase their food, so I leave the PHs and air lines running to keep the mysis shrimp they eat in motion.
When I ran the MH, I had used a power strip to stop the GFCI from tripping...I have T5s, now and they don't give me any trouble. Since I don't have coral the MHs were no longer needed.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Agree that it still protects you from accidents in regards to lighting. Personnaly I've never had any intentions on running my lights on a gfci device. I would prefer them on an afci device like they are intended to be with todays current building codes.
In any event an AFCI device would still protect you incase of an accident but it also offers an added safety measure of detecting shorts to help prevent electrical fires from occuring in the home.
The fact that a surge suppressor helped from keeping your gfci from tripping makes perfect sense. But in another regard it's also preventing those ballasts from starting up like they were designed to. That may have been a contributor to why you started having issues with the ballasts not working properly when you tried to replace them.
Sweater: google would be your best bet for finding designes. I dont know if those up flow ones are quite as effective as a two sided one lit on both sides. But they are supposed to be handy in situations where space is at a premium. Best info is on the scrubber site though.
 
sweatervest13

sweatervest13

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/395080/darn-gfci#post_3516883
Agree that it still protects you from accidents in regards to lighting. Personnaly I've never had any intentions on running my lights on a gfci device. I would prefer them on an afci device like they are intended to be with todays current building codes.
In any event an AFCI device would still protect you incase of an accident but it also offers an added safety measure of detecting shorts to help prevent electrical fires from occuring in the home.
The fact that a surge suppressor helped from keeping your gfci from tripping makes perfect sense. But in another regard it's also preventing those ballasts from starting up like they were designed to. That may have been a contributor to why you started having issues with the ballasts not working properly when you tried to replace them.
Sweater: google would be your best bet for finding designes. I dont know if those up flow ones are quite as effective as a two sided one lit on both sides. But they are supposed to be handy in situations where space is at a premium. Best info is on the scrubber site though.
Can you PM me a link. I am don't think I know about this scrubber site. Unless its SantaMonica's?
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
That's Cory!
I'm off to go google AFCI...I don't run the big lights anymore, so I don't have to worry about letting the MH system fire like it was designed to. However anything designed to prevent electrical fire is something I want to look into.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/395080/darn-gfci#post_3516890
That's Cory!
I'm off to go google AFCI...I don't run the big lights anymore, so I don't have to worry about letting the MH system fire like it was designed to. However anything designed to prevent electrical fire is something I want to look into.
LOL...I already have those installed, I had a breaker that no matter what I did it would trip and not stay on...Realizing I had a bad breaker, I called an electrician in. He told me those were not regular breakers, I think I paid around $30.00 for the replacement. After looking it up I remembered that day, and went to look...sure enough it says right on the breakers AFCI...YAY!
 
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