Definition of "cycle"...?

[luptinpitman]

Is there a clear definition of "cycling a tank"?
Example: You do this, this, and this. This happens and then this is what you get. If you don't do this, this will happen.

 

[thomas712]

Once you fill your tank with water, if you let it sit there running not much will happen for weeks on end. Therfore you must start the cycle or challange it by introducing ammonia. Ammonia is introduced by fish, dead raw shrimp, liverock, livesand or even adding a few drops of ammoina from a bottle, or even what they call cylcle in a bottle. With the ammonia present the first stage bacteria start to form, this bacteria will start to break down the ammonia into nitrites, this takes about a week or so. Ammonia is the most lethal. At about 0.5ppm any corals will close up and eventually die, at 0.5 to 1.0 the fish will exibit irritation and the ammonia will impair the fishes bloods ability to carry oxygen.
As the nitrites build up the second stage bacteria will start to form in order to breakdown the nitrites into nitrates. This stage takes about three weeks or so. The ammonia drops to 0 as the nitrites are in full swing. Nitrites are the 2nd most lethal.
As the nitrites breakdown into nitrates depending on your system and set up you will be left with the nitrates and must find a way to lower them.
A lot of corals can actually use nitrates and can thrive on say 0.5 ppm or less. Nitrates at 30 ppm will cause fish to slow thier growth proccess, impair the immune system, and have reduced energy.
By now the nitrates are growing and the ammonia should be at 0, and the nitrites will eventually be 0.
To lower the nitrates, most aquariums will use a DSB= Deep Sand Bed to proccess the nitrates into a harmless gas that will rise up and escape the water colum. Water changes will also lower nitrates. There are also nitrate sponges, but with the price of the nitrate sponges the benifits of a water change are a much better way to go in my opinion. Nitrates are the least toxic in the cycle.
By the end of the cycle the ammonia=0, nitrites=0, nitrates=low as in less than say 10 ppm. When you believe the cycle has ended it is time in my opinion to do a 30-40 percent water change.
Is there a clear definition. Ha! Ask 100 people get 100 answers.
Hope that helps
Thomas

 

[col]

Is there a clear definition of "cycling a tank"?
To allow beneficial bacteria to develop. These bacteria break down toxic ammonia to less toxic nitrites and finally to nitrates.
Without the bacteria ammonia and nitrite levels wil rise and kill tank inhabitants.

 

[luptinpitman]

Thanks Thomas712 and col, I have read about 4 different books and never seen it so clearing explained. Appreciate the explanation!
Now, is it possible to cycle a tank really quick, like say 2 weeks? I ask because that is how long my tank has been up and running. I started with 100 pounds of live rock and 6 bags of live sand. After one week I added 10 damsels. Lost one yellow tail the first day, all the rest are extremely happy.
I haven't done any tests, but the guy who is helping me with my tank says that it might be ready to go as early as saturday with some mushrooms etc. That will make it two weeks to the day since the tank was started.
What do you think? I know its hard to say without knowing the nitrate, ammonia, and salinity levels, but make a best guess.

 

[saltyshark]

It's definatly possible to cycle a tank in 2 weeks. But cycle times vary greatly from person to person. Some people, although rarely, swear that their cycle was complete in a few days while it may take even a month or more for others. Now those are usually extremes but the "average" cycle is complete in about 2-3 weeks.
In your case, unless your rock was uncured you have only been technically cycling for 1 week. Although it has been set up for 2 weeks, there was nothing to introduce ammonia into the tank to initiate the cycle until you added the damsels (1 week ago), other than the little die-off on the LR. However, if the LR was uncured then the die-off would have been sufficient to begin the cycle (2 weeks ago). But since then you have definitly been pushing that cycle along the way with 9 damsels. They are providing the ammonia that is essential to the cycle. The colonized bacteria in and on your Live Rock/Live Sand will reproduce to keep up with the current ammonia level. Once the bacteria population can keep up with the waste from the fish your ammonia and nitrite levels will begin to drop. When they reach zero, your tank has completed it's cycle.
My GUESS is that you are at half-cycle. I could be wrong provided that you have a good amount of LR and LS which may have sped up the process...your cycle may have already completed. But then again you do have a lot of fish=a lot of waste, pushing a harder cycle. Which IMO is a good thing. You are probably less likely to have a mini-cycle when adding livestock due to your high level of nitrifying bacteria. Then again I may just be crazy
Of course the only real way to find out if a cycle is to have it tested by the LFS or test it yourself, which is what I recommend. Once your test kit reads 0, bring a sample to the LFS for a follow-up. If you do not have a test kit now, I suggest you buy one...they really come in handy and most hobbiests on the board do their own testing. You can get the basic tests Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ph as a kit made by the brand FasTest if you want to save some money. But Salifert seem to be the best although a bit pricier many would agree that they are worth it.
HTH
SaltyShark

 

[lutz493]

I'm not an expert of corals being new to the game but when I did my last Oct. You should have period where you Ammonia spikes really high. My Ammonia level for a few days was off the test kit.
Few days later the Ammonia dropped to zero. Now I didn't have any live rock in my tank during this time and it tooks me about 5-6 weeks for a cycle. People say if you have cured rock in the tank you can cycle it much faster, but even so that doesn't mean your tank is ready for an overhaul of new things.
From my understanding - Your tank being cycled simply means it is capable of handling what you currently have stocked in the tank. As time goes on the Bacteria will beable to handle more and more and thus letting you add to your tank. Only being 2 weeks I personally wouldn't start putting in corals or more fish.
Somebody can correct me if I am wrong but I believe you also want to have your PH, Calc and Alk at numbers ruffly of 8.2PH, 450 Calcium and Alkalinty around 3.8 before you start putting in corals atleast that is what I have gotten from reading the boards.
In your tank pictures somebody asked you what sorta fish you wanted to keep and you weren't sure. From my own experience and most others will tell you the same - Damsels are agressive fish and pick at the other fish. You said you cycled with 10. If you don't want those 10 fish in there forever, I'd probably start pulling them out of your tank.
You also might want to research what fish you want to have because there is usually an order inwhich you add so that way you don't put in a more agressive fish you like before you add in a peaceful fish - The Agressive fish could go after him.
Your gonna start to get algae growth on your rock and glass most likely - If your looking to add to the tank you might want to get a clean-up crew in there first - Let them get comfortable, make sure your levels are all stable and start to add to the tank.
I'm unsure if adding mushrooms will matter or not, but from my understanding corals need very very good water conditions to stay alive and thrive - Not sure after 2 weeks one is able to acheive those conditions. I could stand corrected.
Best of Luck ~

 

[col]

Buy some test kits, you are going to need them.
If you add stuff without testing you are just guessing and you may lose $$$$$.
I wouldn't add mushrooms if the tank MAY be ready, make sure it IS ready.
Finally, don't rush - patience is the key.

 

[luptinpitman]

Thanks for feedback! Everyone is so great on this board. I wish all forums were this kind and open to newbies
I probably shoulded have added a couple of other facts.
1) My service added a few "jump start" products to I think speed up the cycle. I know he added bacteria direct along with the Live Rock and the live sand.
2) The missing yellow tail obviously died after the first few hours and was never removed from the tank. I asked my service and he said that was a good thing.
3) He is bring additional live rock with the corals and has made it abundantly clear that no additional life, be it fish or coral, will be added to the tank until he has tested the water and found it to be ready.
4) Don't know if this is a sign of anything, but my protein skimmer is going nuts. I posted about it by itself, but I have been cleaning it everyday. I assume this is a sign that there is a lot of stuff going on the tank. (I know I sound like an idiot but I am trying)
About the damsels.
The 5 blue ones are REALLY aggressive. I am going to ask the guy to pull all of those. The white, the black and white stripe, the yellow tail, and the 3 spot damsels are all really nice and calm. The big blues mess with pretty much all of them.
Which fish or corals would be the next logical step if the tank has cycled and ready?
And I will definitely be learning about testing this weekend and will get the best kit I can get my hands on. I hate blindly believing anyone, even though all has gone on without a hitch so far.
Thanks again everyone.

 

[overanalyzer]

OK jumped over here from your tank bowed post.
First - have him remove all of your damsels .... as you remove the aggressive ones the passive ones will become dominate in the tank and when new fish are introduced the damsels will become aggressive and force other fish out or harass the hell out of them!
Second - I would ask you guy what the actual levels are and track them in a notebook or spreadsheet.
Third - buy test kits
Fourth - If he is adding new LR I would wait until it has been in for a while before adding any 'shrooms or other corals. It never hurts to be more safe than sorry.
Fifth - You should plan out what kind of fish you want in the tank now so that you can also plan the appropriate corals and such ...
Sixth - good luck - I am jealous of your tank size!!

 

[lutz493]

Yes -
I would pull out all of those Damsels... If you want to keep Damsels I would mebbe look at Green Chromis, they are a schooling fish and very peaceful.
Alot of people like to put tangs in their tank but that is usually one of the last additions. Tangs can be agressive, I do believe though the Hippo Tangs are pretty peaceful, I have one who is very tiny and grazes all day and is very active. people say though they can get ick real easy.
You can put in some types of Dwarf Angels but they will pick at your corals I think, I have never looked at Dwarves for my tank but I do believe Flame Angel is reef safe. The problem is he needs good water conditions so I would probably wait on him since your tank is new.
Six-Line Wrasses are a nice fish, they will eat your copepods though. I've had one for awhile he seems to be pretty hardy.
What I would do is take some time and look at this site they have most all fish for sale and a description of how they are. You can also go to *********** and they have all of the fish, a little background of the fish and they will also let you know what size of tank, if it is reef safe, what they like to eat etc so you can perhaps form a list then you can post here and people can help ya determine what to put in first, unless you just have your guy do that.
You gotta big tank so your gonna have alot more options then me
I purchased a Diamon Watchman Goby for working my sand a few days ago. The guy spends the entire day running around the bottom of the tank digging holes and sifting the sand around. He is not the prettiest of fish, but he servers a purpose in the tank helping with the ecosystem.

 

[luptinpitman]

I spoke to my fish guy again and he said he is bringing about 5 different corals over. He is definitely bringing a mushroom and some polyps. He said he isn't sure what other types he is bringing yet.
I asked him about the damsels and he said it was nothing to worry about. He is right about one thing though, the bigger blue damsels only chase the other blue damsels. No nipping, just running them around.
We plan on putting at least 1 flame angle and one lemon peel angel in the tank in the semi-near future. After the corals get up and going.
Will probably go with some gobies and blennies aslo, but I'm not sure yet.

 

[col]

I think you must have money to burn if you are putting corals in a tank when you haven't tested the water.
Tell the LFS guy to cancel the visit and spend the money on some test kits.
We plan on putting at least 1 flame angle and one lemon peel angel in the tank in the semi-near future
Bad idea. Tank needs to be well established (some say 6 months) before adding something like a Flame. Here in England they cost £60.
Sorry to sound suspicious but the LFS guy is in the money making business and you would be better off getting advice from boards like these. Then again, it's your tank and your money.

 

[luptinpitman]

Water will be tested and confirmed good before ANY corals are put in the tank.

 

[col]

Saw your tank in other thread - looks awesome

 

[luptinpitman]

Well, my LFS guy came over this weekend and brought the stuff. He didn't test the water, other than the salinity, and he put in:
1 Green Brain
1 Small Branch of Polyps
1 Frog Spawn
1 Red Colt Coral
1 Green button polyp
1 green mushroom
1 feather duster
He also put in an additional 24lbs of Fiji Live rock, and 38lbs of table and branch live rock.
All are doing great. They have grown twice their size in just under 24 hours. All nine damsels are still completely happy also.
Wednesday LFS guy is coming back with:
1 Flame Angel
1 Mandarian Goby
1 Green Brittle star fish
1 maroon clown fish
1 anenome
snails and cleaner shrimp.
So, either this guy is completely crazy, or he knows exactly what he is doing. All of his display tanks are amazing and now mine is too if you ask me I guess I will find out if he is right or wrong.

 

[col]

Are you paying for all this stuff? Without even testing the water your tank is being filled.
Come to think of it, is this all a wind up - I've never heard of anything as absurd as this ever!!!!

 

[luptinpitman]

Wind up?
I am paying for all of this stuff.
Seems messed up to me too, but I don't see how a business could be run if this guy screwed everyones tanks up. I have 3 friends that still use him and they have never had a problem. I asked him if he needed to test and he said no. I am inclined at this point to listen, as everything is going along great with the tank.
PS: I don't know why the last four images I posted didn't show up. Do they look like img tags to everyone else also?

 

[col]

Sorry to be so sharp with you.
Apart from everything already in there,You would not put these in a new tank:
Flame Angel
Mandarin
anenome
How much are you going to pay for these alone?
Ring this guy and tell him not to bring anything else. Then wait and see your tank develop. If everything is ok you can say to me told you so.

 

[vibe]

after a week-2 weeks get a couple damsels (or any cheap, hearty fish) and a big bottle of cycle. put the damsels in the tank along with cycle and prime. leave the damsels and everything alone for another week or so. if nothing dies, and/or water lvls(salt, ph, amonia, nitrites, and nitrates) all checks out good, i would say get an addition.
the only problem with cycling the tank with damsels is future aggresivness towards new fish you add to the tank. to avoid this in the future, get a non aggressive fish, like green chromis. they are ideal fish for cycling. probably no more than $5, and they are hearty and non aggressive. good luck

 

[overanalyzer]

OK so you have someone setting this up for you - what is the policy if something dies?? I'd just ask that question first.
Also with the Mandarin Goby - I'd ask if it is eating supplied food or is only eating the copepods from the LR.
Also - as for these fish:
1 Flame Angel
1 Mandarian Goby
1 Green Brittle star fish
1 maroon clown fish
1 anenome
snails and cleaner shrimp.
Are these what you want? Flames can pick @ corals, Mandarins can starve to death without a huge 'pod poulation, maroons can be agressive clowns and will generally not accept any other clowns in the tank ....
The only item I would vehemently argue against is the anenome .... your tank has been up for barely a month (if that) and you are adding some pretty heavy duty items. I'd at least question the lfs guy setting up your tank! Especially on the mandarin and the need for an anenome with such a new tank.