Detailed Ich question for experienced hobbyists...help please!

[danieljames]

Ok...I have done a fair amount of research on this issue and have seemed to come up with a lot of jumbled information.....so I have a few detailed questions before proceeding with anything....
I introduced a new juvenile (1-2 inch) blue hippo tang, who did in fact come from a LFS with copper treated FO display tanks...Introduced him with a yellow tang, blue yellow tail damsel, clownfish, and lawnmower blenny...acclimated him properly, water parameters fine etc.
He took some slight abuse after introduction, some slight bullying from the yellow tang an after a day, the yellow tang was fine. The problem is, my damsel is actually doing most of the bullying big time! It's about the same size as the hippo and almost similar in appearence (I assume this may be part of it?)
I noticed a couple days ago the blue hippo had white spots on it's body (which I assumed to be ich) I removed him for closer observation and diagnosed that it was the start of ich...
Now, I am noticing my yellow tang starting to scratch on the rock so I can only surmise that he's getting it to....
My problem lays with a lack of a QT for treatment. I dont have the money to purchase and set up an entirely new tank for a quarantine tank. I guess the only somewhat good news is that It's technically a FISH ONLY tank with the exception of some live rock, hermit crabs, snails and a star fish.
I have purchased a copper treatment and test kit and here are my questions.
1. Will the copper ABSOLUTELY kill my blue leg hermits? Or are they hardy enough to withstand the mild copper solution in the water? I'v gotten a lot of mixed answers on this
2. Will it kill all life on my Live Rock and Live Sand? Will this start a cycle all over and require a new BIO cycle to begin?
3. Will my tank truly never be suitable ever again for sensitive inverts like shrimp, or corals, or anemones after treatment, even If I perform large water changes over an extended period of time?
I don't want to lose ANYTHING but if I have to suffer the loss on hermits and snails....I will....Mainly I just want to know if this will prevent me from EVER having reef inverts in the future....I understand a QT is a big part of preventing this problem, but I hope some individuals can cut me a break, the tank itself cost me a lot of money and I am not as indepth a hobbyist as many people on his site....
What is my best bet? Copper treating the DT? Removing the infected fish?
Looking for the best advice so I can bring some closure to this problem....fast!
Thanks for all your help in advance!

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by DanielJameS
Ok...I have done a fair amount of research on this issue and have seemed to come up with a lot of jumbled information.....so I have a few detailed questions before proceeding with anything....
I introduced a new juvenile (1-2 inch) blue hippo tang, who did in fact come from a LFS with copper treated FO display tanks...Introduced him with a yellow tang, blue yellow tail damsel, clownfish, and lawnmower blenny...acclimated him properly, water parameters fine etc.
He took some slight abuse after introduction, some slight bullying from the yellow tang an after a day, the yellow tang was fine. The problem is, my damsel is actually doing most of the bullying big time! It's about the same size as the hippo and almost similar in appearence (I assume this may be part of it?)
>> The damel will bully any sized fish. They are known for it.
I noticed a couple days ago the blue hippo had white spots on it's body (which I assumed to be ich) I removed him for closer observation and diagnosed that it was the start of ich...
>> Very common with any new tang.
Now, I am noticing my yellow tang starting to scratch on the rock so I can only surmise that he's getting it to....
>> Once one fish in the display has it they will all get it. This is one of the main reasons why quarantine is so important.
My problem lays with a lack of a QT for treatment. I dont have the money to purchase and set up an entirely new tank for a quarantine tank. I guess the only somewhat good news is that It's technically a FISH ONLY tank with the exception of some live rock, hermit crabs, snails and a star fish.
Being that it is FO you can remove the live rockand nverts into a seperate tub. Add a powerhead and a heater.
I have purchased a copper treatment and test kit and here are my questions.
1. Will the copper ABSOLUTELY kill my blue leg hermits? Or are they hardy enough to withstand the mild copper solution in the water? I'v gotten a lot of mixed answers on this
>>They will not survive copper. You cannot only use a mild dose or it will not kill the ich parasite. Ich is an invert. You cannot kill ich without killing other inverts.
2. Will it kill all life on my Live Rock and Live Sand? Will this start a cycle all over and require a new BIO cycle to begin?
>>Yes it will.
3. Will my tank truly never be suitable ever again for sensitive inverts like shrimp, or corals, or anemones after treatment, even If I perform large water changes over an extended period of time?
>>Yes. Copper will soak into the rock, sand, and silicone and will leech back out over time making the tank unsuitable for inverts of any kind.
I don't want to lose ANYTHING but if I have to suffer the loss on hermits and snails....I will....Mainly I just want to know if this will prevent me from EVER having reef inverts in the future....I understand a QT is a big part of preventing this problem, but I hope some individuals can cut me a break, the tank itself cost me a lot of money and I am not as indepth a hobbyist as many people on his site....
What is my best bet? Copper treating the DT? Removing the infected fish?
Looking for the best advice so I can bring some closure to this problem....fast!
Thanks for all your help in advance!
Unfortunately, you will have to spend some money here. The cheapest way to go is to pick up a rubbermaid tub for your rock and inverts. Remove them and then hypo the display tank. There are several "reef safe" meds available that may work in this case being that you are in a jam. Kick ich is one Stop parasites is another. They will not kill the ich in the system but will allow your fish to live with it. The product basicaly helps keep the parasites off of the fish's body. This will buy you some time. Some people report not seeing any more parasites for months. It is imporant to fed your fish healthy foods and keep their immune system high so that they can fight the parasites off. You may want to get rid of the damsel because he will continue to harass your other fish. A harassed fish is stressed which results in a lowered immune system.

 

[danieljames]

Well now thisis completely different advice from what I have already received....
Your saying ich is an invert? Is this correct? Does a parasitic bacteria qualify as an invert? I would think it would be more like a flu bug no?
I've also read that as effective as hypo is.....it's extremely stressful along with copper treatments...I don't think this little hippo is going to survive a shock treatment like that, and if that happens, I'm back to square one...
In regards to your advice on higher copper level....the kit says to maintain a coppr level of .15ppm for 14-30 days consistently...is this wrong?
I'm already in the process of removing the damsel....I removed three after I cycled the tank, and am kicking myself for not taking him out then.....I had to remove all decor' in the tank to get them out...right now I am trying the bottle trick...not working so well...
I have also read that many people have left their tanks alone....removed the cause of stress (in this case the damsel) fed garlic soaked and vitamin enriched foods, and let the fish pull through naturally...this isn't even an option?
I did not plan on the damsel getting THAT aggressive...hence I wasn't planning for ich...I know tangs are prone to it, but my tank is meticulous when it comes to water parameters and maintenance...
As I said in the post....a QT is not an option...at least right now...and I know there have to be other viable options....I'm looking for a lot of different input here...

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by DanielJameS
Well now thisis completely different advice from what I have already received....
Your saying ich is an invert? Is this correct? Does a parasitic bacteria qualify as an invert? I would think it would be more like a flu bug no?
>> Ich is a parasite. The flu is a virus. Go to the Common Treatments FAQ at the top of the disease and treatment forum. Beth has a wonderful description of the ich parasite and it's life cycle.
I've also read that as effective as hypo is.....it's extremely stressful along with copper treatments...I don't think this little hippo is going to survive a shock treatment like that, and if that happens, I'm back to square one...
>>Hyposalinity is not stressful to the fish. Most times when fish stress out durring hypo it is from some other cause such as them being in a quarantine tank that was not cycled. It is the water quality not the lower salinity that stresses them. Copper is not stressful as long as you use the proper dosage. Again see Beth's common treatments article.
In regards to your advice on higher copper level....the kit says to maintain a coppr level of .15ppm for 14-30 days consistently...is this wrong?
I'm already in the process of removing the damsel....I removed three after I cycled the tank, and am kicking myself for not taking him out then.....I had to remove all decor' in the tank to get them out...right now I am trying the bottle trick...not working so well...
>> Most people have a hard time getting them out and end up removing all or most of their rock to do it.
I have also read that many people have left their tanks alone....removed the cause of stress (in this case the damsel) fed garlic soaked and vitamin enriched foods, and let the fish pull through naturally...this isn't even an option?
>>The problem with that theory is that as long as ich is in the tank it will continue to feed off of the fish. If the fish have a high immune system they will fight the parasite off. Enough will attatch to the fish to keep the life cycle going. You will always be batteling ich, to some degree, if you do not break the life cycle. Any time the fish's immune system falls, or you introduce a new fish, ich will show up again.
I did not plan on the damsel getting THAT aggressive...hence I wasn't planning for ich...I know tangs are prone to it, but my tank is meticulous when it comes to water parameters and maintenance...
>> Ich did not come from the stress. Ich came in on a tang that was not quarantined. Just because you did not see it on the fish does not mean that it was not there. It could have been in his gills, which is where it commonly is attatched because of the soft gill tissue.
As I said in the post....a QT is not an option...at least right now...and I know there have to be other viable options....I'm looking for a lot of different input here...
I understand that you cannot set up a quarantine tank right now. You can use reef safe medications. I just want you to understand that they will not kill the parasite. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts in this hoby.

 

[danieljames]

I appreciate the help....what If I remove LR and all inverts....copper treat the DT.....for about a month, then do enough water changes until I see 0's for copper and re-introdce the rock and inverts...will that work?
I do have a office tank where I could move rock and inverts....just not all my fish...

 

[1journeyman]

Ich is an invertebrate parasite. In no way related to a virus.
Once you treat a tank with copper it may never be invert safe again.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by DanielJameS
I appreciate the help....what If I remove LR and all inverts....copper treat the DT.....for about a month, then do enough water changes until I see 0's for copper and re-introdce the rock and inverts...will that work?
I do have a office tank where I could move rock and inverts....just not all my fish...
The problem with adding copper into the DT is that it will be absorbed by your sand and silicone, as I mentioned. Even if the copper reads zero it will still be leeching back out into the water enough to kill your inverts and microrganisms on your rock. You will not be able to keep inverts again and your rock will become base rock. Do you have a refractometer? If not then pick one up. Remove the rock and inverts into a rubbermaid tub with a heater and a powerhead. Don't place the rock and inverts into a tank that has fish in it because you will infect those fish as well. Perform hyposalinity on the display tank.

 

[danieljames]

Hey Sep....thanks for all the help.....I have spent the last day and a half reading and reading and reading, and researching the effects of medications such as kick-ich or rid-parasite...and of course have gotten mixed reviews....and understand how these treatments work and why they are not the best bet for the cure.....based on what I have read I have a couple more questions for you....
My yellow tang is now infected with ich......being that it is the holiday it has been hard to make a fast move on treatment (sure you can understand) I plan to take action tommorow and in the mean time, I have been feeding garlic soaked frozen emerald entre' and Marine cousine.....and nori sheets....fish are still eating.....but the yellow tang is looking very dis-colored and has ich spots present on the body...
I have decided that copper is the way I want to go, I know you are a believer in hypo, however I have the copper treatment and copper test kit which I have already paid for and I plan to go tommorow to *****, they have sales on small tanks which I can use for a QT.....
This may be a stupid question, but If I move all my fish to the QT and copper treat, keep the DT fish free for six weeks, and place fish back in DT after treating.....will the copper water the fish were treated in have any affect on my DT? My biggest issue here is not losing the option to keep inverts in the future.
Also, what can I do immediately while I am attemtping to get this all set up to keep my fish as healthy as possible? Continue to feed garlic soaked foods?
Secondly, being that I have 2 tangs....won't the small size of a QT be even more stressfull? Will this be an issue? What do you suggest putting in a QT? substrate no substrate? Rockwork?
Thanks again!

 

[danieljames]

Bump

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by DanielJameS
Hey Sep....thanks for all the help.....I have spent the last day and a half reading and reading and reading, and researching the effects of medications such as kick-ich or rid-parasite...and of course have gotten mixed reviews....and understand how these treatments work and why they are not the best bet for the cure.....based on what I have read I have a couple more questions for you....
My yellow tang is now infected with ich......being that it is the holiday it has been hard to make a fast move on treatment (sure you can understand) I plan to take action tommorow and in the mean time, I have been feeding garlic soaked frozen emerald entre' and Marine cousine.....and nori sheets....fish are still eating.....but the yellow tang is looking very dis-colored and has ich spots present on the body...
I have decided that copper is the way I want to go, I know you are a believer in hypo, however I have the copper treatment and copper test kit which I have already paid for and I plan to go tommorow to *****, they have sales on small tanks which I can use for a QT.....
This may be a stupid question, but If I move all my fish to the QT and copper treat, keep the DT fish free for six weeks, and place fish back in DT after treating.....will the copper water the fish were treated in have any affect on my DT? My biggest issue here is not losing the option to keep inverts in the future.
Also, what can I do immediately while I am attemtping to get this all set up to keep my fish as healthy as possible? Continue to feed garlic soaked foods?
Secondly, being that I have 2 tangs....won't the small size of a QT be even more stressfull? Will this be an issue? What do you suggest putting in a QT? substrate no substrate? Rockwork?
Thanks again!
If you are going to treat with copper then you will need a qt large enough for all of your fish, not just the tangs. There is no substrate in a qt tank normally, however, you should add a few cups of your sand to this one. The tank is going to have a pretty hard cycle. By adding a few cups of sand you will be adding some bacteria to help lessen the cycle. You will have to be on top of water changes durring the entire six weeks. You will have to add copper to the water that you are adding into the tank. Be certain to test each bucket of water to be sure that the levels are exactly the same as in the QT. Do not use the same buckets that you would normally use for water changes. Copper is not absorbed into the fish's body. The only risk of getting copper into the tank when introducing the fish back into the DT is if you use a specimen container to transfer them rather than a net.

 

[turtlegirl933]

A quarine tank is not very espensive, just get a 10 gallon tank, barebottem, and a few peices of PBC pipe. A sponge filter is a good thing for a Q tank. The proper level of copper will kill all the invertabrates in the tank and will render your tank unable to house corals for a long time. Damsels are pure eviel. They will attack almost anything, no matter the size.

 

[danieljames]

Or here is another thought....maybe this IS the easier way to go per your direction....If I remove the live rock, all inverts, and starfish from DT....and do hypo.....correct me if i'm wrong but 1. I can still keep the fish in the DT just at a lower Salinity and 2. It won't prohibit me from adding inverts and LR back to DT when tank is cured.
With that said, this method will not prevent me from switching to a more reef style tank in the future correct?
From what I have read this process can be very stressfull on the fish is this true? How "Dead On" so to speak do you have to be with this process? I know I would have to buy a refractometer but other than that, how much of a margin for error is there?

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by DanielJameS
Or here is another thought....maybe this IS the easier way to go per your direction....If I remove the live rock, all inverts, and starfish from DT....and do hypo.....correct me if i'm wrong but 1. I can still keep the fish in the DT just at a lower Salinity and 2. It won't prohibit me from adding inverts and LR back to DT when tank is cured.
With that said, this method will not prevent me from switching to a more reef style tank in the future correct?
From what I have read this process can be very stressfull on the fish is this true? How "Dead On" so to speak do you have to be with this process? I know I would have to buy a refractometer but other than that, how much of a margin for error is there?
Hypo is not stressfull to the fish if it is performed correcty. Most of the time when fish get stressed durring hypo it is because of an uncycled qt or a rushed procedure. Hyposalnity is perfectly safe for your tank. Be sure to remove the rock and inverts first. Have you read Beth's instructions for hyposalinity in her Common Treatments FAQ yet? Be sure to read those and ask any questions that you still may have.

 

[danieljames]

No I have not read the entire post yet...I will do that now....thank you for all the help....I think I may do Hypo instead of copper.....I am hoping my LFS has a refractometer I can buy and not have to wait for one to be delivered...
The ICH has to be pretty bad....I can visually see parasites on the aquarium glass...I am worried that the wait for a refractometer will give way to another outbreak....my yellow tang has gotten a slight break from the ich as it is back to swimming peacefully with minimal signs of it on the body and fins....however through research I know this is the "calm before the storm" so to speak...the next, more powerful, storm that is....
I am worried about a mini cycle, putting all of my livestock in a newly started QT.....With that said....I think I would be better pulling out some of my LS and all LR and inverts, placing those into a QT....and performing Hypo on the DT....at the same time....the Live Rock should cycle my QT enough to keep for future quarantine of new additions...one of my LFS has a 10G mini starter aquarium with heater, light, thermometer etc etc....which would be perfect for introducing 1 new addition at a time, but putting everything in that tank could be treturous....
Few more questions for you, While I get this all coordinated is there anything else I can do to keep the infected fish as comfortable as possible? Any natural remedies I don't know of?
Also, as i will be leaving all of my sand in the DT....will this give me any kind of problem with Hypo? It was store bought packaged "live sand" it was wet, (they actually sell it on this site) however it is not true live sand bought from a LFS established tank...
Thank You again in advance...

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by DanielJameS
No I have not read the entire post yet...I will do that now....thank you for all the help....I think I may do Hypo instead of copper.....I am hoping my LFS has a refractometer I can buy and not have to wait for one to be delivered...
>>That is the best choice for your fish
The ICH has to be pretty bad....I can visually see parasites on the aquarium glass...I am worried that the wait for a refractometer will give way to another outbreak....my yellow tang has gotten a slight break from the ich as it is back to swimming peacefully with minimal signs of it on the body and fins....however through research I know this is the "calm before the storm" so to speak...the next, more powerful, storm that is....
>>You are not seeing ich on the glass. Ich is only visible by the bare eye when it is engorged in a fish. You are likely seeing copepods on the glass which are harmless food for fish that come out of the rocks. What you are seeing with the tang is the life cycle of ich. All of those parasites that were on him are now in the sand bed reproducing.
I am worried about a mini cycle, putting all of my livestock in a newly started QT.....With that said....I think I would be better pulling out some of my LS and all LR and inverts, placing those into a QT....and performing Hypo on the DT....at the same time....the Live Rock should cycle my QT enough to keep for future quarantine of new additions...one of my LFS has a 10G mini starter aquarium with heater, light, thermometer etc etc....which would be perfect for introducing 1 new addition at a time, but putting everything in that tank could be treturous....
>>I don't think all of your rock will fit in there, but you can certainly get it going with one piece for future additions!
Few more questions for you, While I get this all coordinated is there anything else I can do to keep the infected fish as comfortable as possible? Any natural remedies I don't know of?
>>You can add fresh garlic into their food. There are directions for that in the same FAQ that I have mentioned. Keep the water quality prestine and feed them very nutritious foods dosed in vitamins and fresh garlic. What do you feed them now?
Also, as i will be leaving all of my sand in the DT....will this give me any kind of problem with Hypo? It was store bought packaged "live sand" it was wet, (they actually sell it on this site) however it is not true live sand bought from a LFS established tank...
Thank You again in advance...
The sand will be fine. Bacteria does not die in hypo. Microrganisms in the sand won't make it, but you can buy a cup or two of true live sand after you are done with hypo to easiy reseed the sand that you have.

 

[danieljames]

Excellent....Thank You...

 

[danieljames]

Thanks for all your help again....
I feed usually fresh store bought foods....(i.e. scallops, clams, non- oily ocean stuff) grinded up with some nori and garlic oil....or frozen emerald entre' or marine quasine....Nori sheets, minimal flake, some freeze dried krille and bloodworms....I would think variety is good....I try to stay away from frozen brine as I have heard it's like candy for fish....
This may sound like a stupid question....but is there any way to spot the stage of the ich life cycle? As I said before, the yellow tang is rid of any visual signs of the parasite, however my blue hippo still has some.....(this could be deteriorated skin from before) however he IS eating....I had to disturb the tank yesterday to remove a yellow tail damsel.....but the little DEVIL HAD TO GO....I am fully confident that the damsel was a large part of the blue hippo's stress.....used to pick and nip at the thing every time the hippo showed his face in the front of the tank....
When will the freeswimming stage take place? After the parasite has dropped to the bottom and re-produced? I can only assume I am currently in the re-productive stage of ich right now....
Still trying to keep them happy until I can get everything situated...( I live in an apartment) will a water change help? At all?
What else can I do? The fish are eating and appear to be otherwise pretty healthy....

 

[danieljames]

Thought I would give an update......After removal of the damsel.....the hippo seems to be night and day different.....there are barely any visible spots on him...and he is swimming freely throuhout the tank.....(which was rare before, he used to hide ALL THE TIME....) I am sure this may be a result of the second stage of ich.....seems like the appropriate time frame....but I just got home from buyin some natural organic aids...(fresh garlic, more store bought fresh foods, etc) and am going to attempt to keep the fish well fed, and water parameters up....
I am just so overwhelmed.....I truly am scared to spend a bunch of money setting up a quarantine....not one of my LFS sells a refractometer....so regardless I would have to wait a few days for one to arrive....I would want at least a 20g quarantine tank with propper filtration, heater, etc to perform treatment, plus a refractometer, plus a lot of time I do not have, plus a newby attempting this delicate process...equals stress on me! now i know how the fish feel....(I think i'm even starting to itch)
I know this is a widely debated topic....and mostly one that is negated on this forum....but what about kick ich? Yes....it's expensive ($24) at my local fish store....No it has not been 100% proven to be effective, YES it is tedious because it really only attacks one life cycle of ich....however, If I keep my livestock properly fed and attempt to go after this damn beast in the freeswimming stage....I don't think It can be argued it is entirely possible to concur this thing, oranically and medically....Some and I stress SOME people have had success with it...Is it as proven and effective as hypo or copper? Of course not..But I think as a newer hobbyist the chances of me killing everything I own by messin up one step of hypo is more likely.....Out of all quote un-quote "reef safe" meds out there, I have gotten the most feedback on this one......some say it "doesn't work" possibly because they are using it too late...or too soon? I have been keeping a very watchful eye on this situation (as you know) and I guess at this point I'm willing to try it...The stress between removing my rockwork, chasing my damsel, returnin the rockwork, then removing all the rockwork, than chasing all these fish around a tank for an hour, than placin them in a tiny tank, than dropping their environmental conditions seems enough to wipe them out alone.....
I know everyone is going to yell at me....especially mods....but I think the biggest reason for the med vs. natural argument on this site is.....long term experienced hobbyists with plenty of equipment to spare vs. new hobbyists on a budget....I know the feeling as my real hobby of choice is music....and If my buddy went out and bought some cheap american made Fender Squire that will break in a year and sound like garbage...I would yell at him for not taken the experienced hobbyist route and buying a quality Fender Strat...
But I guess in time, that buddy will have to learn the hardway, the expensive way....or maybe....that fender squire will work for him....for now...
I guess what i'm trying to say is that, I understand and appreciate the input from the mods....as they were once in our shoes...and have been there done that....and don't want to see the newby's fail and make the same mistakes they did....it's like a parenting thing..

but I feel for right now, this is my only option.....I live in an apartment, and to set up a quarntine tank and move livestock, and rockwork, is just tedious, and un-realistic.
I don't want my tank to crash.....maybe it will maybe it wont.....but either way I come out with new knowledge...and when I upgrade to my "dream tank" hopefully a year from now, I will have grown with the hobby, experienced losses, and diseases, and will be able to learn from my mistakes, set up a QT, and a sump, and be able to diagnose and treat diseases like a champ so I can stand where you are one day....
They say you gotta crawl before you walk.....and Hypo at this point, at least to me is like racing accross the floor....If my tank crashes....It will teach me to slow down a bit, and take the proper precautions prior to introducing new fish, and most importantly preventing this from EVER happening again...my intentions were good...when I see those little guys penned up in a 15 or 20 gallon QT at the store, to bring them home to an environment with other peacefull fish, good food, adequate rockwork, and a good owner.
Sorry Sorry Sorry! for the long post.....but this is a diary of a stressed out new hobbyist! If you can't blow it out here....where can you blow it out right?
Let the fish god's be by my side!!
DanielJameS

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by DanielJameS
Thanks for all your help again....
I feed usually fresh store bought foods....(i.e. scallops, clams, non- oily ocean stuff) grinded up with some nori and garlic oil....or frozen emerald entre' or marine quasine....Nori sheets, minimal flake, some freeze dried krille and bloodworms....I would think variety is good....I try to stay away from frozen brine as I have heard it's like candy for fish....
This may sound like a stupid question....but is there any way to spot the stage of the ich life cycle? As I said before, the yellow tang is rid of any visual signs of the parasite, however my blue hippo still has some.....(this could be deteriorated skin from before) however he IS eating....I had to disturb the tank yesterday to remove a yellow tail damsel.....but the little DEVIL HAD TO GO....I am fully confident that the damsel was a large part of the blue hippo's stress.....used to pick and nip at the thing every time the hippo showed his face in the front of the tank....
When will the freeswimming stage take place? After the parasite has dropped to the bottom and re-produced? I can only assume I am currently in the re-productive stage of ich right now....
Still trying to keep them happy until I can get everything situated...( I live in an apartment) will a water change help? At all?
What else can I do? The fish are eating and appear to be otherwise pretty healthy....
You are assuming that every parasite on the fish was at the same stage. The fish could have parasites in his gill tissue, there are likely parasites reproducing right now in your tank, while there are some attatched. Ich does not all fall off at the same time and reproduce, then all try to re-attatch. This is why the ich life cycle has to be interrupted in order to eradicate the parasite.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by DanielJameS
Thought I would give an update......After removal of the damsel.....the hippo seems to be night and day different.....there are barely any visible spots on him...and he is swimming freely throuhout the tank.....(which was rare before, he used to hide ALL THE TIME....) I am sure this may be a result of the second stage of ich
>That and the removal of the damsel.....seems like the appropriate time frame....but I just got home from buyin some natural organic aids...(fresh garlic, more store bought fresh foods, etc) and am going to attempt to keep the fish well fed, and water parameters up....
>Excellent idea

I am just so overwhelmed.....I truly am scared to spend a bunch of money setting up a quarantine....not one of my LFS sells a refractometer....so regardless I would have to wait a few days for one to arrive....I would want at least a 20g quarantine tank with propper filtration, heater, etc to perform treatment, plus a refractometer, plus a lot of time I do not have, plus a newby attempting this delicate process...equals stress on me! now i know how the fish feel....(I think i'm even starting to itch)
>I understand how you are feeling. Please understand that you will have to get the refractometer and treat all of the fish sooner or later. It is best to start thinking about that now.
I know this is a widely debated topic....and mostly one that is negated on this forum....but what about kick ich?
>It is effective at keeping most of the parasites off of the fish. If that is all you can afford at the moment then it is certainly worth a shot. Again, it will not remove the parasites from the tank. Still plan on setting up and cycling a QT.
..The stress between removing my rockwork, chasing my damsel, returnin the rockwork, then removing all the rockwork, than chasing all these fish around a tank for an hour, than placin them in a tiny tank, than dropping their environmental conditions seems enough to wipe them out alone.....
> No, there is no stress durring hypo as long as the fish are not in an uncycled QT that is having all kinds of spikes. Hypo is not difficult at all.
I know everyone is going to yell at me....especially mods....but I think the biggest reason for the med vs. natural argument on this site is.....long term experienced hobbyists with plenty of equipment to spare vs. new hobbyists on a budget
> Not true at all. I did my first hypo with a Deep Six hydrometer. I had to test the water repeatedly to find the median test result, hydrometers test way off, then do the math to figure out exactly how low the SG should go. I then drew a line on the tank and kept the FW topped off.
....I know the feeling as my real hobby of choice is music....and If my buddy went out and bought some cheap american made Fender Squire that will break in a year and sound like garbage...I would yell at him for not taken the experienced hobbyist route and buying a quality Fender Strat...
> I owned a music/fish store until I left my husband last year. It isn't the name on the instrument, it is the sound it produces that counts. Anyone who isn't trying to sell you an expensive guitar will tell you that. I carried many different brands. People would come in determined to get a Fender and walk out with a Dean. I told EVERYONE to just play whatever guitar they liked. Fender is not the superior brand. It is the well know brand.But I guess in time, that buddy will have to learn the hardway, the expensive way....or maybe....that fender squire will work for him....for now...
I guess what i'm trying to say is that, I understand and appreciate the input from the mods....as they were once in our shoes...and have been there done that....and don't want to see the newby's fail and make the same mistakes they did....it's like a parenting thing..

but I feel for right now, this is my only option.....I live in an apartment, and to set up a quarntine tank and move livestock, and rockwork, is just tedious, and un-realistic.
> All choices are yours. It is your livestock. Reef safe meds will keep the ich off. I do not dispute that at all. Please understand that ich will still be alive and well in your tank.
I don't want my tank to crash.....maybe it will maybe it wont.....but either way I come out with new knowledge...and when I upgrade to my "dream tank" hopefully a year from now, I will have grown with the hobby, experienced losses, and diseases, and will be able to learn from my mistakes, set up a QT, and a sump, and be able to diagnose and treat diseases like a champ so I can stand where you are one day....
> I hope that you don't come out with losses, but I am very glad that you will come out with experience and knowledge

DanielJameS
Dan, don't give up at all. You are trying to do the right thing. Kick ich and garlic will certainly help. Sorry, the post was too long, I had to delete a little bit.