Disappearing fins-help!

[meemo]

I have 2 percula clowns in qt waiting to go in my main tank. The smaller one's fins are disappearing! No marks, scratches, or anything. The other clown is not being abusive. I cannot find enough info on this to know what to do! I think it may be tail and fin rot and perhaps I need to do antibiotics. That's as much info as I have been able to find. I need more instructions. But I don't know the details-please help! The other clown appears fine, so if I do treatment can I leave him in the tank with the smaller one? I will try to post a pic in a little while.
:help:

 

[meemo]

I have been looking at the fish all the time and haven't noticed this until just now! Here is a pic, I am really worried.

 

[meemo]

OK I panicked a little. Now I am going to try to give some details as requested on faq.
1. My smaller clownfish is breathing heavy, its top and bottom fins are "disappearing". The clear part is completely gone on top and bottom and the black part is almost gone on the top. I looked closer at the larger clown and its top and bottom fins have lost a small amount of the clear section. The smaller one is having some difficulty moving around now.
2. Labored breathing only in the smaller one - this actually started a couple of days ago. I just thought it was excited. They are both eating well and not hiding.
3. I just noticed the smaller ones fins deteriorating today, Tuesday. And only noticed the larger one on further study. The heavy breathing in the smaller one has been at least 2 days.
4. The 2 clowns are the only livestock in my 10 gal qt. There are 2 pieces pvc, 2 small flowerpots, a few shells, a heater, and a hang on power filter, thermometer. It has been up 1 month.
5. I feed mostly flake foods and occasional frozen mysis shrimp with garlic. I just got some zoe and gave today for first time.
6. I have had the smaller fish 5 days and the larger one 7 days. They are from 2 different lfs. I called lfs I purchased smaller fish from and they said none of the others were affected but they would give me an exchange if I wanted. There was a small molly in the qt before the clownfish were added which I removed because she picked on them immediately. It was from same lfs as smaller fish. I took it back. It has been in my main tank too which has no other fish yet.
7. Neither of these fish have been out of the qt yet. The molly has been in the 30 gallon display a few days until I had the chance to take it back to the lfs.
8. I have done no treatments yet, just putting vitamins on the frozen mysis shrimp with garlic today.
9. Parameters:
temp 79-80
salinity 1.023
ph 8.2
nitrite 0
ammonia 0
nitrate 10-15
I did a 10 % water change 2 days ago before I noticed this.
I think I covered it all. Thanks for any help!:nope:

 

[beth]

That diet is pretty bad, and in fact, eroded fins are a sign of malnutrition. Can you get a close up pic up?
Take a look at my recipe for fish food which is listed in FAQ. This recipe is a clownfish heaven diet. If you don't want to make your own food, then forget about the flakes and starting getting a variety of quality frozen foods. Soak the frozen food for 20 mins in the refrigerator with Zoecon.
I would suggest doing hyposalinity in the QT to reduce stress, then proceed with nutritional changes. I would not be surprised if the smaller clown is, in fact, being harassed even if you don't notice it. Try to find a clear tank divider to separate the two fish.

 

[meemo]

I just went to lfs for medicine and noticed all their clownfish have the same symptoms, some worse than others. I'm pretty sure it is fin rot. I was looking for maracyn 2 which I read about here but could only find the freshwater version. So I bought Mela Fix and will use it unless I hear something against it here, or a better solution. I was planning to get formula one pellets for the fish but it isnt availabe locally. I have been only feeding them flakes mainly right now because my tank is new and I was afraid it couldn't handle too much raw food. But if it will help I will give them the frozen mysis shrimp once a day soaked in garlic and zoe. I have been doing it only twice a week. I will try out your recipe too.
I'm afraid hyposalinity would be too slow right now because the fins really seem to be disintigrating fast! And they don't look bitten or shredded at all-just shrunken. And seeing every clown in the tank at lfs with shrunken fins makes me believe it is not my other clown biting him. Plus my other clown is starting to have a little disintigration on the top too.
What would you recommend specifically for fin rot in addition to or instead of MelaFix? I can order maracyn 2 saltwater on the internet but will need something faster! I read if the rotting reaches the base of the fin it will not be able to grow back.

 

[meemo]

This is the closest to a close up my camera an do. I will post a before too. Today is Tuesday.

 

[meemo]

Well, I can't find a before picture in the depths of my computer right now. But I stared at those fish half an hour looking for flaws before I bought one. I know the fins have deteriorated just in the last 24 hours. I am afraid the Melafix isn't good enough but it is the only saltwater antibiotic available locally. They have freshwater maracyn 2 though. Do you think it would be safe to use that in my saltwater tank? Petsmart employee said no and sold me melafix. Should I do hypo and melafix together?

 

[beth]

That is not a bacterial infection. As I said, it could well be very poor nutrition. Obviously poor nutrition where ever all the fish came from. Go ahead and use the Melafix. You could have also used the FW Maracyn2. Add the vitmin supplement, such as Zoecon, to the food for several mins prior to feeding. Improve the diet by adding a variety of good quality foods.
My recommendation to perform hyposalinity was not for the ich, but rather, to reduce osmotic pressure which would result in easing the metabolism of the fish.
Bony marine fish have an osmotic concentration of around ¼ of that in sea water Fish lose water due to osmosis as well as thru waste elimination. To replenish lost water, fish must in turn drink a lot of water to make up for the loss. Excess sodium, chloride, magnesium and sulphates are in turn excreted. This process is extremely energy draining on fish. When fish are stressed this function is particularly affected; fish experience difficulty adjusting the concentration of these substances. Lowering the salinity of the tank water makes the concentration of sodium, etc., closer to the fishes internal fluids and reduces the fish’s efforts to maintain the correct concentrations. Thus, the notion that hypo is stressful or dangerous to fish is dispelled. It is, in fact, a stress reliever.

 

[meemo]

OK Thank you. I do have some freshwater maracyn 2 the lfs gave me free because of her fish being sick, but I was afraid to use it being freshwater. Should I do all 3 at the same time? Maracyn 2 freshwater, melafix tea, and hyposalinity?
I already added 1 tsp melafix to my 10 gallon qt. She gave me 7 tablets of maracyn 2 I could use if you recommend it. And I can start hyposalinity now.
Let me know for sure if it is ok to use all 3 of these at the same time.
Thank you for your help.

 

[meemo]

I was reading about hypo. I don't have a refractometer, just a swing arm. I think the only thing I can purchase locally quick is a cheap glass measure. Would that still be better than a swing arm? My swing arm doesn't even measure down to 1.009. Also what should I use to level ph of the freshwater? Is baking soda really good to use or should I purchase something for this.
Thanks again

 

[beth]

You might as well throw away the swing-arm. It is useless. Better to use the glass flotational hydrometer, however, see if you can manage a refractometer into your budget asap. They really are the best instrument to use for measuring salinity. And, we are talking about the life-fluid of your marine animals. You can get a refract now for $50. A year ago they were commonly selling for $150, so the price has really dropped.
You can use baking soda that is fresh, or you can use any buffer sold in the hobby. Be sure to buffer the water before it goes into the QT. Get pH test kits.

 

[meemo]

I added the fw maracyn 2 tablets and the melafix. I also fed frozen mysis shrimp with garlic, zoe, and zoecon. And I purchased a variety frozen fish pack. I have 3 questions.
1. The frozen food/vitamin mix makes a big mess in the tank. I fed about 1/8 tsp to the 2 clowns in my 10g qt. I tried to clean it well after they ate but the water is still cloudy. The water is cloudy from the meds too. Is this a concern?
2. Is there a better or neater way to feed this kind of food - how do you do it?
3. My swing arm only goes down to 1.010 and the only glass one I can find is cheap, smallish, and only goes down to 1.012. Should I still use the cheap glass one instead? I can't get a refractometer right now after buying vitamins, meds, more frozen foods, etc. But I would still like to start hypo. I will get a refractometer as soon as I can though.

 

[meemo]

A new lfs loaned me their personal refractometer for free! I'm so excited! I compared its readings with my swing arm and it is waaaay off. On my display mine read 1.0245 and theirs read 1.029! I had no idea my salinity was too high. On my qt which I have been lowering for hypo, mine read just under 1.012 and the refractometer read 1.016! I would not have had my salinity low enough throughout hypo at all - it would have been 1.013 instead of 1.009.
Anyway, I think my little clownfish is a little better. The top fin is perkier and seems bigger to me. If you don't mind, please answer me back about feeding the frozen food with vitamins. I am afraid it is too big of a mess and I am doing it wrong. Today I took a tiny bit of some frozen emerald entree that I refroze after adding garlic, zoe and zoecon. I added a pencil eraser size piece to the tank still frozen. The fish came to the top and ate it. And it didn't make a mess. Do you think this is ok adding it frozen? And is that enough for them to eat 2 - 3 times a day? Also, the water is still cloudy. Is this normal with maracyn 2, melafix, and frozen foods w/ garlic,zoe, and zoecon for one or more of these to cause cloudiness?
Thank you so much for the advice about vitamins/nutrition and the refractometer. I really think there is a very slight improvement already.

 

[beth]

Yes, I can not emphasize enough to fellow hobbyists the need to throw out the swing arm hydrometers and get either a refractometer or a lab-grade hydrometer. This is the water that is life to fish. Don't think that precise salinity is not important.
Why are you adding M2? Don't add 2 meds. As I told you, I strongely feel that this a nutritional problem, and, now, as we discovered, likely a salinity problem as well.
Go to the FAQ Thread and take a look at the fish receipe there. That may be the answer. When you make up your food, you can add a bit of garlic and zoecon right to the food mix before freezing. Use a turkey baster to target feed your fish. This avoids just throwing in food and having it land all over the place. In a QT you really do need to slowly target feed your fish so that food gets into the fish rather than all over the tank.

 

[meemo]

The reason I added the m2 is earlier when I said I could only find the freshwater version and was afraid to use it, you said I could have used the freshwater version. Since the melafix is a natural tea I thought you meant it was ok to use them together. 1. Which one should I stop then?
The fish's top fin is looking better to me. I'm not sure if there is actually regrowth or if its bones are just perked back up. However, it has been acting tired and swimming at the bottom of the tank a lot. I do keep the lights off most of the time but even when I turn the light on and feed them it isn't as perky as it used to be. It seems to me to be swimming crooked, head down. Could this be from the meds/and or hypo? The guy at the lfs who loaned me the refractometer told me he thought this was fin rot and bacterial and that most fish don't make it if they had it when they came into the store. (It wasn't from his store.) He said I should get a UV filter to help kill bacteria and parasites. 2. What do you think about this?
3. I am going to purchase a protein skimmer soon. Will it be ok to use it in the qt and then later in the main tank or will it carry over bad bacteria?
Thank you so much for all your time and help.

 

[beth]

Originally posted by Meemo
The reason I added the m2 is earlier when I said I could only find the freshwater version and was afraid to use it, you said I could have used the freshwater version. Since the melafix is a natural tea I thought you meant it was ok to use them together. 1. Which one should I stop then?
Meemo, I thought I was saying that the problem was nutritional and that if diet improved then the problem may improve. You wanted to use the medication. Where are you at with the hyposalinity? That fish is really in rough shape and could well be too far gone. Is he still eating? You can continue with the M2 but do a good water change just before each re-dose. While you are doing the water chances to attain hyposaline conditions medications will be diluted [making them of little value anyway]. Does the fish have hiding places? What are your water reading in the QT? Can you add a small PH to the tank?
The fish's top fin is looking better to me. I'm not sure if there is actually regrowth or if its bones are just perked back up.
See if you can get another pic up to see progress.
The guy at the lfs who loaned me the refractometer told me he thought this was fin rot and bacterial and that most fish don't make it if they had it when they came into the store. (It wasn't from his store.)
It is not fin rot. Fin rot looks like stingy frayed fins. This is eroded fins which is a symptom of severe malnutrition.
He said I should get a UV filter to help kill bacteria and parasites. 2. What do you think about this?
I think the guy at the LFS wants to sell you expensive eqquiptment. Buy a good quality skimmer instead. This is one of the most important investments you will make in the hobby.
3. I am going to purchase a protein skimmer soon. Will it be ok to use it in the qt and then later in the main tank or will it carry over bad bacteria?
Good idea to purchase a protein skimmer. Just put the skimmer on the display. Skimmers are not made for QTs. Skimmers won't work in hyposaline conditions. They interfere with medications. Any skimmer that you would fit on a QT would be too small to really use effectively on the display. You can add a PH to the QT, however.

 

[lionfish12]

Your fish may be suffering from "Finrot" which is when your fish is lossing its fins and tails and become damaged.

 

[beth]

No. Finrot typically looks like stingy frayed fins. These fins are eroded. Malnutrition. Possibly resulting from the salinity inaccuracy due to swing arm usage.

 

[lionfish12]

ok... i learned something new today! :jumping:

 

[meemo]

Meemo, I thought I was saying that the problem was nutritional and that if diet improved then the problem may improve. You wanted to use the medication. Where are you at with the hyposalinity? That fish is really in rough shape and could well be too far gone. Is he still eating? You can continue with the M2 but do a good water change just before each re-dose. While you are doing the water chances to attain hyposaline conditions medications will be diluted [making them of little value anyway]. Does the fish have hiding places? What are your water reading in the QT? Can you add a small PH to the tank?
Hypo is at 1.009-10. He is not eating as much. I add the m2 after each pm water change. I have been doing water changes every 12 hours for the hypo. There are 2 pieces of pvc and a flower pot for hiding places but he doesn't hide as much any more. He mostly stays by the intake of the filter. There is a maxi jet 600 in the qt. Water is 79 degrees, ph is 8.2, nitrite s 0, nitrates 0-5, ammonia 0. The tail is a little frayed but the other fins are not.
So at this point I should try to keep everything level for 3 weeks right? Temp 79, ph 8.2, salinity 1.009, feeding 2-3 times daily with vitamin soaked fresh or frozen foods. 1. Am I forgetting or missing anything? 2. How much salt do you put per gallon to mix water changes to 1.009? 3. And how often + what % should I do water changes in hypo now? I've been putting 1/2 teaspoon ph buffer per 5 gallons saltwater. Instant ocean salt and Kent super buffer are what I am using. He is looking better but acting worse.
:notsure: