Disbeliever in nitrate factories

[fat_ed]

I've read many posts stating that cannister filters, bioballs, bio bale, etc. are "nitrate factories." Now perhaps this is true, but I would just like to set forth my own experience for you to consider.
My tank has been up and running for a little over four months. To date I have lost no livestock excepting a green chromis that stuck his head in a powerhead on his first night in the tank, and a handful of victims of the ongoing Scarlet vs. Blue Crab Wars. I have also kept a handful of soft corals/shrooms successfully under NO lighting for two months.
My point is this -- I run a Eheim cannister filter (w/ media) and CPR skimmer w/ biobale left over from my fish only days. The Eheim + UV keeps the water crystal clear. Yet my nitrates have been zero since Day 1. This was true even before I set up my algae refugium, which has been running for less than two months.
I humbly suggest that a DSB and quality LR + regular 2 week water changes w/ RO water can keep your nitrates at optimum levels -- even in the presence of "nitrate factories".
Perhaps time will prove me wrong, but for now I'm hesitant to even remove the media, as it seems to be doing nothing wrong. I will probably remove the biobale -- only b/c I would like to put the heater in that chamber.

 

[mr . salty]

I would like to point out that a four month old tank IS A BABY.Even overstocked,this young of a tank would probably not show problem nitrate levels.I am not trying to discourage you...Or discount your ideas on experience so far,but Nitrate problems are most common in heavily stocked FO tanks,Not reef setups(like yours sounds like).IMO,Bio balls and similar media can,and will,cause high nitrates if there is no prefilter in place to keep excess waste from building up on the media.THIS IS THE MAIN CONCERN/CAUSE.....

 

[beth]

Well, you don't say how often you clean your media? Are you using carbon?
Frequent cleanings of canister media and replacement of carbon will maintain your canister filter as a mechanical as opposed to a biological filter. The canister has the capacity to do both. As a mechanical filter, the canister does an excellent job keeping things crystal clear. This requires frequent cleaning and/or replacement of filter media. It is when the media filter is allowed to age into a biolotgical filter that the "nitrate factory" dread takes place.
You are right, LR, LS and a DSB and refugium will do the job in keeping nitrates in check. I would suggest, however, that you don't allow your mechanical filters to age into bio filters--why tempt fate?
[ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: Beth ]

 

[jimi]

As Salty mentioned a 4 month old tank is a baby. Mainly however if there is no waste produced there will be little or no nitrates to build up.Lots of live rock and sand are known effective ways to reduce nitrates so Fat-ed your experiences basically do nothing to prove bio balls and canisters are not high nitrate producers. You put a canister, wet/dry bio ball setup on a cc bed moderately stocked FISH tank after four months then come back and tell us you have no nitrates.

 

[fat_ed]

Just to clarify. I understand, as sharks, each of you generally bends towards the cautious in providing advice on this board, as you want give all new saltwater hobbiests the greatest chance for success. I posted this only to relate my own experience, and to posit that canister filters can still play a valuable role in a REEF setup. I have read several posts here suggesting that: 1) canister filters are only useful for FO applications, not reef b/c of the nitrates they produce; 2) if you use a canister filter in a reef, you need to clean the media every week to two weeks; and 3) the best approach is to remove the bio media from the canister altogether. As a result, I would imagine that many people reading this board have been dissuaded from using canister filters.
I am certainly not arguing, as jimi suggests, that a canister filter setup in an overstocked FO setup with CC substrate will not lead to high nitrates. In fact, quite the opposite. I ran such a setup for about 3 years in the early 90's before DSB's, plenums, and refugiums became popular and widely available. I knew about Berlin systems back then, but I viewed them as a reef-only application, and I did not have the cash to invest in 50+ lbs of live rock. In any case, I did have nitrate problems then, which could only be remedied through large frequent water changes. However, as you well know, jimi, nitrates do not represent the same danger to a FO system as they do to a reef.
I am only suggesting that if you 1) perform regular water changes (10% every 2 weeks) with RO water; 2) clean the canister every three months (Eheim recommends 3-6 months); 3) and maintain acceptable stocking levels (I have a green chromis, purple firefish, and maroon clown, with a six-line wrasse to be added soon), you can keep nitrates at zero in the presence of a DSB and live rock. This is all normally accepted good husbandry.
If I thought canister filters had no additional benefits, this would be a moot point. However, I think quality canister filters provide many benefits for smaller reefs that sumps do not. Namely: 1) a smaller footprint under the tank; 2) better mechanical filtration; 3) easy setup for UV sterilizers; 4) additional biological filtration; 5) no need for additional expensive pumps and overflow boxes; 6) easier and more leakproof plumbing.
Just something to think about. Perhaps, as Salty suggests, I will be singing a different tune in another 6-8 months. I doubt it, however, as the tank will be continuing to mature, and I have no plans to dramatically increase the bioload.
And Beth, with respect to your question as to carbon -- I haven't had any need to use it. The UV + filter keeps the water crystal clear. If the water did start to yellow, I would consider adding a sock of carbon to the skimmer return chamber after first changing the UV bulb.
Just something to chew on.
[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Fat_Ed ]

 

[jimi]

I agree with what you have said. A canister would be less likely to produce high nitrate reading in a low waste enviorment like a reef. High nitrates are not healthy for anything even though fish survive at higher levels does not mean they are thriving, nitrates are still pollution. All I was saying is you are doing everything to keep the nitrates down water changes, live rock, ls,low stocking,cleaning the canister so it does nothing to prove your post title. Most problems with canisters or bio balls come when they are the sole means of filtration and no live rock or sand is present.

 

[beth]

Well, keepn us posted on your result in 4 mos. It will be interesting to see what you come up with.

 

[ironreef]

canister,cc,bio balls can create nitrate if not cleaned often. after years they get dirty faster or get build up even if you clean often. Even if you keep them clean and still have no/low nitrates i opt for a filtration I rarely need to clean. fwiw I ran a 55g reef with just a whispher and had caulerpa in my sump for years. But I prefer good skimming along with my alga tank. I clean my skimmer every couple mo but I save on carbon. I'm still cleaning something but it's part of the hobby. Whatever works works but many ppl have had problems but i bet it was mostly from overstocking fish