Discouragement from the start (water)

[lilredwuck]

Been working on getting the 90 gallon going I have. Having problems with my RODI unit. Broke a filter in my RODI before I got it hooked up. Ordered replacements for all the filters except the membraine. New sediment 1 and 5 micron, a new carbon block filter, and a new DI resin filter.
Got the stuff in the mail. Including other stuff as well.

Hooked it the rest of the way up, hooked up the TDS meter, and test fired it. Had a couple leaks that I fixed and was running fine.
This is how it is ran. I split off the washer line downstairs

That is the laundry room where I split the feed. It runs under the cabinet up the side of it and through the floor.

This is how where it comes up through the floor.

The first test on the TDS moniter (DM-1 Model) read 195 on the "in" side and 2 PPM on the "out" side.Thought it was just the new filters and to let it run for a while. Was collecting good water in a 3 gallon bucket.

My pressure meter leaked really bad at hook up, so it's been unhooked. After running for a while half filled 3 gallon bucket I checked the TDS again and it was 195 in and 0 out. SWEET!! I noticed that the DI Resin was changing colors, Normal? ??

Let it run and fill up the bucket. Dumped when it became full. Started on a new bucket and was going to start filling the tank, ran a house from the rodi to the tank to start the fill.

The water ran about halfway up the line and that's it. Wouldn't go any farther what so ever. Thought it was strange since people hook this up in the basement and run the out tubing up to the tank. So.... I ran it back into the bucket some more, checked the TDS meter again. It had ran for about 4-5 hours at that point. In side was at 201 and out side was at 67 and kept climbing. Shut it down for the night. I woke up this morning and the cat had knocked over the bucket mostly full and left a dead mouse in the middle of the floor, don't understand as he is fat, no claws, 13 years old, and only has 1 tooth left in the front. So don't know exactly where the water went and there is only 1 mushy spot in the ceiling dime sized were the tubing ran up. Started filling the bucket again and waited a while. Now the readings are reading stable... Half the bucket has filled for now and I have 201 reading on the in side and a constant 165 on the out side. Still filling my bucket I just don't know why. lol Long read yes, but I want everyone to fully understand all the variables.
Main questions would be, is the membraine done for? Should I get a new one? What's with the water not going "up" on the out side. It is a constant flow of drips on the clean water and a stream on the "dirty" water. The bad water fills the washer in about the same time the clean fills the 3 gallon bucket. It has to be something with the membraine, I will order a pressure meter I guess, but I think it's "backdraining" into the membraine, which is why it won't push it.

 

[scsinet]

I suspect you've got the cartridges in the wrong order, and/or the unit is misplumbed. The water should flow through the unit like this:
WATER FEED > SEDIMENT FILTER > CARBON FILTER > MEMBRANE > DI RESIN > OUTPUT WATER
I can't see it clearly in your pictures, but in at least two pictures you can see that you've got a water line going directly from the membrane to the bucket you are collecting water in. That means that the DI resin is somehow hooked up to the system before the membrane, which will cause the DI resin to be expelled VERY quickly. The changing colors is the DI resin being used, so that explains this completely.
Let's get your unit plumbed correctly, then we'll think about why the water isn't lifting into your tank.

 

[lilredwuck]

I bought it all hooked up, figured they knew what they were doing. I suspect he had a fifth filter for the di resin, but kept it and shoved it into the 3rd filters spot? Remember this?

With the mesh bag of carbon?
Here are some better pictures.

This picture shows the sumps hooked directly to each other a male to male coupling. White pieces between them.

Took me a while to do that, but I figure you'd get the idea.
Someone told me that the resin is exhausted and to put the di after the membrane, and put the TDS in monitor between the membrane to the DI after it's been moved. Then the out on the water coming out of the di resin.

 

[scsinet]

Okay I've definitely identified one problem and might have identified another. Forgive me, this is gonna take some time to explain, but luckily I type really fast

First, my suspicions from the first set of pics is correct... you've got the DI resin in the line before the membrane. This MUST come afterwards. The membrane does most of the heavy lifting, otherwise the DI resin would be expelled very (read: V E R Y) quickly - which is obviously what is happening.
Second, I do not see a flow restrictor installed in the waste water output on that membrane cartridge. The flow restrictor keeps the water flowing in from simply passing right through and out the waste water outlet without going through the membrane. It allows pressure to build up in the chamber (by restricting the flow) and hence forcing water through the membrane as filtered product water. Without that, you will get little, if any, water from the "good water" outlet and you'll get practically no pressure - which I think you've noticed already.
So first, the hard part... the DI resin... unfortunately it looks like your chambers are fitted "in line" with small nipp.les connecting them together. This makes things much more difficult. What you'll have to do is take the entire unit apart, and remove the row of heads from the metal frame. Then you can rotate the far right head counter clockwise and spin it off, and remove the nipp.ple. So what you'll be left with is 2 chambers screwed together, and one separate. Now is the time to make a decision.
Option 1 is to mount the one loose chamber you've got separately from the unit. Option 2 is to rotate it 90 degrees and re-mount it to the metal frame. However, if you do that, you won't have any accessibility to one of the fittings from the two that are still together, so you'll need to rotate all 3 of them 90 degrees, and use little stubs of hose to string them together. Option 3 is to drill new holes in the frame to accomodate the third chamber far enough separated from the other two to get access to the fitting.
The last option, which is the easiest yet most expensive, is to purchase an additional chamber to run separately for your DI resin, and leave the third chamber in this unit either empty or install another sediment cartridge.
Does this all make sense?
Next, you'll need to get several 1/4" NPT to 1/4" JACO or JOHN-GUEST fittings and some teflon tape, whcih it looks like you are already familiar with and plumb the whole thing up, to match the flow path I mapped out earlier in the thread.
Now, the flow restrictor... it's a little dodadd that fits into the end of the hose for the waste water before it gets installed in the unit. I've attached a picture. The little plastic piece slides snugly into the end of the hose, then the hose gets installed normally. I'm not sure a flow restrictor is compatible with a john-guest fitting, you may need to remove the john-guest fitting and install a JACO fitting (again, cheap and easy) to accomodate it.
The first thing you need to do is take your waste line apart and look for the restrictor. If it's not there, you'll need to buy a flow restrictor that matches the flow rate of teh membrane you are using (they are a matched pair). If it's missing, installing that should take care of your pressure issue.

 

[lilredwuck]

So the DI resin toast, but there's still hope for the membrane? I will probably just buy another stand along canister. Is there any difference between color changing resin and non color changing, performance, etc. not sure if I should just order the resin anyways to kill the trouble any you were naming off couplings john,,, etc not a clue what is who..

 

[scsinet]

The memrane should be fine, but yeah, I'd order a new DI cartride. While you are at it, you may want to put something into that third chamber if it's going to be empty. A second carbon cartridge or a second sediment filter... but that's truly your choice, you can run it empty just as easy.
Color changing resin performs the same as the regular stuff, but it changes color as it is exhausted, making it easier to tell when to change the cartridge.
So your shopping list should include:
(1) external canister
(1) DI resin cartridge
(1) flow restrictor matched to the gallon-per-day rating of your membrane
You can probably get all this stuff at the same place, and you'll probably be able to buy a DI resin cartridge and an external canister as one bundle.
John Guest fittings are what you have. They are the ones that you just push the tubing into and it locks. Personally, I don't trust them, but I've never ever seen one leak or break so I have no real reasons for my mistrust.
Jaco fittings have a screw on sleeve that you thread onto the hose, then you put a little collar on the hose, shove it into the fitting, and tighten down the collar. These are my preference, again, for no good reason as stated above.

 

[lilredwuck]

I am going to order some of the stuff, I'll hold off on the membrane for now though. Could you tell me more about the automatic top offs and how they work/controlled. I see floats, AMSOV, check valves (what are these for?the check valves.) I am assuming that the high TDS reading was the membrane not working properly due to the no flow regulator, or just a bad membrane, right? During set up I actually had the John Guest fittings work great for me. FAST AND SIMPLE. I always try to outdo myself and have learned the fast easy way is good. It's the ones you like, that leaked on me. Like at the pressure gauge meter. So I couldn't tell ya what I am pushing. I would love to get it all right now and be able to start filling the tank, but hey why not ANOTHER week later? As for the drain line, I ran it myself, so there is no flow restrictor on it.
As well the Company I bought the filters from are great. Shipment got here in 2 days. Even helped me at 10pm within the hour, when I was asking simular questions. I also got a $3 return on shipping as they thought they overcharged me for it?!? Now lets go spend some money. The bad thing is the only advertisement they really have is word of mouth, but if anyone wants the link just pm me.

 

[johnr2604]

I totally agree, it looks like SCSInet has your problem nailed. I still find it odd that you were not getting lower TDS with it going through the RO even if you do have the DI in front. The readings would definetly not be zero but I would imagine they would have been more around the 20 mark.

 

[aquaknight]

One thing, having the actual RO/DI unit by the tank, or by the faucet (in the laundry room).... With that long of a return waste line, you could be affecting the rejection rate (what the flow restrictor does), and thus prematurely exhausting the RO membrane. Or do someone think not? I am going by the considerable flow rate coming from my 75gpd unit. If you have a 40' waste line, that surely has to further restrict the flow?
Whenever I have to fill a tank, I just run a line to the tank, from the laundry room where my RO/DI is kept. There's already a drain for the washer, so the waste line is just a short drop from the shevles up top.

 

[johnr2604]

Well If SCSI's theory on the head height and no restrictor is true (which makes sense to me) Then he still dosn't have enogh restriction through that long run. It may be since its upstairs gravity is helping

 

[flower]

Whew, well since you have the RO/DI filter problems taken care of...the reason you can't pump the water to the tank is simply that you need a stronger pump.
My auto top unit works like this...one sensor goes into the tank at the level I want my tank water. The second sensor goes in the tub of RO water on the bottom. This sensor protects the pump from burning up. If the water is low the ATO will not come on.
I put my tub of RO water under my tank cabinet. A hose is connected to a utility pump, that pump is connected to the ATO. when the sensors indicate the pump comes on and pumps RO water to the proper level, topping off the tank.
I also run a small power head to keep the water moving, it is the one I use for water changes, so I just put it in there when I am between changes, just because I am a worry wart and don't want standing water. I doubt it is necessary.
I hope this answers your second question.