diving for coral.... a few questions.

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elan

Guest
I heard a rumer that we can dive for corals in florida.
So to confirm this, i found the recreational harvesting regulations for popular tropical-ornamental aquarium species. (see http://marinefisheries.org/recreatio...harvestmls.htm)
All harvest is prohibited of the following species:
Live rock, Bahama starfish, longspine urchin, any sea fan of the species Gorgonia flabellum or of the species Gorgonia ventalina, any hard or stony coral (Order Scleractinia), any fire coral (Genus Millepora).
and for the others, there are some size restrictions, but for fish only.
I dont remember seeing any soft corals down here, but then again, i never really paid that much attention.
If i do find some down there, does anyone know of acclimation procedures for inverts/soft corals straight from the ocean?
 
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elan

Guest
i am talking about soft corals... i plan on fragging them right from the ocean... i dont see how that is destroying the reef.
 
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elan

Guest
yeah.. cutting a piece off from them, then bringing it back to grow
 

dcr

Member
I don't see a problem with what you want to do. People eat or taxidermy fish they catch from a river or lake, and they eat wild birds they shoot while poaching or if in season, and I could go on for days. The point is that all elan wants to do is enjoy the hobby. A tank grown animal and a wild animal in captivity is wrong in every sense anyway don't you think? Rules and regulations exist for what elan wants to do, and it sounds like a fun experience in my opinion.
 

azeritis

Member
DCR
The reasons you are mentioning are probably why there is nothing left in the oceans, in the forests, in the skies, and in the rivers.
I often consider that the animals we keep in our tanks contributes to the destruction of our environment.....
I will give you a simple example. In Greece where I live,

[hr]
fishing is a very common hobby, and there are numerous commercial fishermen in every island. I am 33 years old and every year I spend hours and hours, snorkling, just observing the sea floor and therocks etc (we do not have corals). Every season I have to go deeper and deeper in order to find an octapus or a fish. There is nothing left.
I wish these laws were as strict in Greece as they are in the states, and I wish that paople obeyd them.
 
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elan

Guest
wow, this is turning the wrong way....
so..just because i am bored and feeling childish, i will attack those that will attack my reasoning.....
1) To those that think what i am about to do is just mean, DCR hit the nail on the head..... "A tank grown animal and a wild animal in captivity is wrong in every sense.... " if you own a tank with anything living, you baically plucked an animal from its natural environment and put it in a jail where it may or may not survive, and definitely will not live its whole life...... if you have ever done any diving, the first thing you notice is how large all the animals and corals are.... angel fish more than a foot and a half in length, sponges which are 3-4 feet wide and 4-5 feet tall, parrot fish over a foot in length, grouper in the 50-1000 lbs range (depending on species), corals that are usually 10-100 times in size than in an artifical tank...... the list goes on and on... but basically, the point is, whenever you take something and put it in your tank, you either stunt their growth, malnurish them, keep them in an environment that is well below their "normal" levels...
there is just no way to keep a tank otherwise.. the more we put into our tanks, the better off they will be......which would be equivenant to plucking one of you and putting you in a house... 100sq ft, or if your owner is rich, 1000sq ft... and then feed you at his discretion and constantly try to get your air around 19% oxygen so you can breath.. oh yeah... the CO2 filter just needed to be replaced, and you are suffocating, slowly, hoping that the damn filter will be replaced...... get my drift??
Now, as far as tank raised organisms.... just because they are tank raised doesnt mean much except for the fact that they will probably acclimate to your tank better... the fish, in a physiological sense and a mental sense, is the same... just like if some owner plucked two of you, and you made a baby so the owner can take the baby and put it in another tank, does not make it right... the baby may survive, but its life will not be the same if you just left the whole family in the wild...
2) we are part of the food chain. just because there are less fish in the sea dosnt necessarily mean we, as humans, are purposly killing our natural resources. Yeah, there are a few rogue people out there that like to kill, just to kill. but for the most part, the decrease in fish mean two things.... one, the fish are getting smarter and staying clear out of our way (you can see this over a length of time fishing... the fish are still there, but they just wont bite your bait because they learned to stay away from bait with a leader attached to it (try florocarbon leader... very good stuff), and the other reason is that in order to feed our ever growing population, we need to depleate our resources....... the fix to this is to decrease our population.... so if you are alive, and not a vegitarian, you are part of the problem.
3) Thankfully, the government has put in regulations to try and make sure that our resources are sustained. to give you an example, Snook is one of the tastiest fish in costal areas of florida. So tasty, they were near eradication. So a strict law was put in place... you can no longer buy or sell snook...so the only way you could eat them is catch them, or know someone who can catch them... the population came back a bit, but it wasnt enough... so they put in a two fish per day limit.... this helped alot, but they wanted it better... so they set a minimum size of 12 inches....... that still wasnt enough... well, to cut to the chase, the regulations now are a minimum of 26" and a max of 34" (any fish larger than 34" are females, and all females must go back)..... so in the last few years, the populations have increased tremedously... and its much easier to catch fish which are large enough to make any fisherman happy....... this has also worked for billfish (sailfish, marlin, swordfish have all made great comebacks and are continuing their path... pretty soon, catching a 1000lbs blue marlin will not be just stories of the past), grouper, jewfish, hogfish, tarpon, snapper, etc, etc.
4) If you noticed, i am the type of person to check on regulations before i go hunting. whether it be for fish, and now hopefully corals and inverts... i am not going to go for fish since most of the fish here will just eat my corals. but, there are regulations to ensure that the reef will be able to sustain itself. a 30 piece limit, and a limit on what you can take. Basically, you cannot take rock, hard corals, seafans, and a few other items. I did not read anything about taking sand from the floor, which is probably why they can sell "straight from the ocean floor" sand (we have plenty to go around)
5) and i really belive that if i do this myself, i will be saving our reefs rather than getting them from the store. Having something to put into my tank with a few hours lag time instead of days or weeks lag time has got to be better.
a) you have no idea how many corals and fish died in order to get one living one in your LFS display.
b) you have no idea how they were harvested (cyanide)
c) you have no idea if the harvisters are harvisting too many (depleating the reef to the point where it can no longer sustain itself)
So get a grip!
 
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elan

Guest
so back to the main question...
If i do find something down there, does anyone know of acclimation procedures for inverts/soft corals straight from the ocean?
I ask this because i dont want to try the trial and error approach, killing needlessly, where if i get some ideas and suggestions, the chances of their survival will be much greater.
 
I don't know much about the acclimation of species of inverts and soft corals but I definitely see your point about how you harvest. Growing up in Florida I have watched many a things dissapear but when they banned the nets alot of our fish here in the panhandle came back. Sometimes I wish they would make the catch limits even more strict. As far as what you want to do I think it is conservative. Many peopppple would go down and try and take the whole coral rather than just try and frag it. I think I would definitely call whoever patrols the water(ie marine patrol and so on) where you are and make sure they know the law and agree with you. I asked five different guys between coast guard and marine patrol here and got a different answer everytime. Even though you might be right one misinformed MP can make it into a bad day.
Rich
 

david s

Member
Blaa Blaa everyone that talks like you shouldnt take stuff from the ocean should go down to the ocean with thier tanks and put everything back. lol come on guys. we dont do reefing because we all hate the ocean. it is the exact opposite. so stop the finger pointing. I am not sure about the acclimation. but I would think just do it the same way you always do. maybe a little slower is all. I wish we had corals up here on the east coast because I would have my tank full of stuff. :D
 
I helped a friend frag some corals when i went to australia. we ebed up geetting about 5 differnent frags. he started to frags ina QT tank just for this purpose in case something cantaminted the coral in the ocean. he left it there for about 2 monts then transeferd it to his 240gal tank w/o any problems. After these get bigger he frags them to people for free to keep them from going out and stealing the whole coral instead of a frag.
 
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elan

Guest
cool deal.. sounds like a decent plan.... after the last fragging party i went to, i want to bring some really cool stuff next time. hopefully i will find some stuff not usually sold in stores.
 

buzz

Active Member
I'm sorry Elan, and this is just my opinion, of course. But your logic and reasoning are actually very disappointing.
The argument that anything in our tanks is there as a result of plucking them out of their natural environment and slowly watching them die (no, not your exact words) is not justification to start raping the coral reefs.
Many specimens in our tanks are there as a result of people breeding certain fish, and propagating coral in a controlled environment. Is it exactly fair to a fish to keep it in a tank? Of course not, but that isn't really the point. If everyone starts plucking things (hard coral, soft coral, fish, whatever) off of the ocean reefs, those reefs will eventually die. These reefs serve a purpose beyond looking nice. Some serve as barriers. Some serve as homes to a lot of life...whatever reason you want to throw in the mix...they will die. I'd rather have 2 fish pulled from the ocean, and have them spawn, and have a breeder grow 20-30 babies, and sell them, then have 20-30 fish stripped directly from the ocean. I'd rather have 1 piece of coral pulled from the ocean, have someone grow it out, and frag it to sell to 5 people, instead of having 5 corals plucked from the ocean. See the point now?
Also:
5) and i really belive that if i do this myself, i will be saving our reefs rather than getting them from the store. Having something to put into my tank with a few hours lag time instead of days or weeks lag time has got to be better.
I'm afraid I don't see the logic in this...this has to be better for who? For you? Or for the reef? It isn't better for the reef. It is better for you in that you get something in your tank quicker, and at less cost to you. That's all.
To point out your reply 5 A, B and C, The reasons that you give further justify that it is better to tank propagate fish and corals than pull them directly from the ocean.
Of course cyanide fishing is wrong. Of course many die in the process. Tank propagation is the way to minimize this.
I am glad that you look in to regulations. But just because something isn't against the law doesn't make it right to do. Why wait until the government has to intercede to put regulations on things to do what is right?
Please don't take offense to any of this. It is not intended as a personal affront.
 

overanalyzer

Active Member
Elan - OK I think what you are planning on doing is responsible and if you are absolutely sure on how to do it then I don't see a problem - issue arises when you don't know how -exactly - to do it .... then you could kill both the coral and the frag.
You might try doing a scoutting expidition and then come back and ask quetions and post pics (get a camera or rent one or something ...)
Lastly - the logic you use in your arguements above lack and I truly take exception on your tank raised comment. I'm just too tired to go into a rebuttal right now ....
 
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elan

Guest
my my... i cannot believe what has happened here.... i've been painted as the meanie :mad: which wants to kill the reefs...:eek:
i am just an ocean enthusiast. been diving and fishing since i was a child. the last thing i would ever want is to have the last place on earth, not yet touched by man (well.. you get the point), to be destroyed.
Responsible Harvesting is the key to making sure our reefs survive and thrive. :)
and thats all i am trying to do....
i found the regulations to make sure i will not take anything that is at risk of being depleted...
and i am asking questions and learning about Responsible Harvesting BEFORE i take anything....;)
 
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elan

Guest
overanalyzer, good point... i will add some pics... nothing in particular, just some shots of past diving trips... it would take a lifetime to get back to the exact same spot...lol.... it just wont happen....
i am still reading up on my corals and have to take a bunch more dive trips to figure out what is out here... there are just too many different kinds....
 
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