Everyone always says............

spanko

spanko

Active Member
Palytoxin in Zoanthids or Palythoas we get in the aquarium trade is a myth and not to be concerned about. I will submit that the risk is there and if you are fragging these coral it is best to wear protection including gloves masks and eye wear.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018235?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+plosone%2FPLoSONE+%28PLoS+ONE+Alerts%3A+New+Articles%29&utm_content=Google+Reader#pone-0018235-g001
Read the RC thread linked in the above article also.
Better safe.
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/384993/everyone-always-says#post_3374538
Palytoxin in Zoanthids or Palythoas we get in the aquarium trade is a myth and not to be concerned about. I will submit that the risk is there and if you are fragging these coral it is best to wear protection including gloves masks and eye wear.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018235?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+plosone%2FPLoSONE+%28PLoS+ONE+Alerts%3A+New+Articles%29&utm_content=Google+Reader#pone-0018235-g001
Read the RC thread linked in the above article also.
Better safe.
PLEASE read my experience with this stuff here:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/383694/palytoxin-experience-and-cautions#post_3357953
1. I know MOST zoas do not make/contain it - too many people have them (zoas) and reports of illness is too rare. AND most zoas researched for it fail to contain it. But some palys DO!
2. Do I KNOW it was palytoxin (injested) that caused my symptoms? no... But something did, and at the time, P. mutuki was the only frag I touched that morning, and somthing caused me to become very ill, very quick. Considering the ammount left on my thumb & index finger from just barely touching them THEN rinsing my fingers (poorly) in the sink for seconds - leads my suspiscions to paly toxin exposure - injested. My symptoms match up with others who have been exposed (breathing problems/rapid heart rate/metallic taste/etc.)
3. Beware of automatically discounting someones symptoms after their contact with palys/proto palys and any reaction afterwords. . There are several ways the toxin can enter ones system, and different symptoms should be expected from each type of exposure i.e. inhaled/absorbed thru skin/injested/ entering blood stream directly thru a cut or injection. So little research has been done on the specific results from each type of exposure - most palytoxin research seems to deal with it's toxicity when it enters the bloodstream of a mammal - with much less data on other types of exposure.
4. Someone who works in their own yard but has never had "poison ivy" should not discredit their neighbor who has had it from working in theirs. Not getting poison ivy rash either comes from lack of exposure OR an immunity to it. However there are reports of people having SEVERE respitory problems from burining the stuff and inhaling the aerosoled vapor - while external exposure results in the famillar rash. Only 1 or 2 people out of 10 seem to have a immunity from poison ivy - but the toxicity of palytoxin is SO extreme - likely no mammals have any immunity from it.
Simply stating there is no danger in the aquarium trade from reciving a paly that DOES make it is dangerous at best. I still have the frag of P. mutuki in my reef, and if the OP would like to experiment with it - I'll gladly ship it to him - but it makes SOMTHING that made me extremely ill, and if i'd KNOWN about palytoxin at the time - I'd have called 911 and prayed....I didn't know what happened to me that morning, but it's doubtful it was a rapid onset of food posioning...
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
A Proposed test....
I've a small animal trap that I've just baited with cheese & peanut butter - looks like this less the squirrel:

it's out in the woodshed where I know good size rats live from time to time. If I can catch one, i'll remove 1 polyp of P. mutuki and expose some of it's mucus to a bit of cheese. I am so curious about all this palytoxin talk I kinda want to know if my symptoms had anything to do with this coral or not.
Of course i won't be able to know how many millionths or billionths of a gram it takes to do the trick - but I think I can determine rather definatively if SOME type of NATURAL toxin is present.
Thoughts?
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
They don't make rat poison? Rat traps - both the glue & snap kind do the trick too - don't they?? I had to stop feeding the wild birds in the backyard cause the rats were collecting the fallen seeds and hording them in the woodshed - where LOTS of breeding was going on. Since I have dogs, poison was not an option - but I've removed MANY using the traps.
If you prefer meo - I'll not post the results for a positive, but PM the OP and a few others.
 
meowzer

meowzer

Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangs rule http:///forum/thread/384993/everyone-always-says#post_3374873
They don't make rat poison? Rat traps - both the glue & snap kind do the trick too - don't they?? I had to stop feeding the wild birds in the backyard cause the rats were collecting the fallen seeds and hording them in the woodshed - where LOTS of breeding was going on. Since I have dogs, poison was not an option - but I've removed MANY using the traps.
If you prefer meo - I'll not post the results for a positive, but PM the OP and a few others.
LOL...you can post whatever you want.....
I have nothing against killing a "rat"
so will this kill it...or just torture it???
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Read the first post, if there is Palytoxin in the mucus he puts on the cheese the rat shouldn't last very long at all.
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/384993/everyone-always-says#post_3374874
Not an animal a rat!
Post the results!!!!!

That's classic!!!!
Meo - 1 gram of palytoxin can kill 300 million to 1billion mice - it should be ALOT quicker than strychnine and other toxins found in rat poison. If what made me sick exists in the slime of P. mutuki - - i'd expect the process to take minutes - whereas typical rat poisons take many hours or days. Will post the "plan" as soon as I've a test subject.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Rats are living creatures too...some are kept as pets.
To be honest there is so much bacteria in a fish tank that if you don't properly wash your hands and then put said hands into your mouth, you will get sick with or without coral toxins. Also it is best to wear gloves and protective eyewear for the same reason. Little chunks of coral, rock or splashes in the eye can create all kinds of problems.
A tiny cut on a fingernail cuticle can also allow bacteria to enter and make you sick. So wear gloves and eye protection, and leave the poor critters alone instead of making them your test subjects before you get bitten by a rat and need medical care for that.
 
nikesb

nikesb

Active Member
over 95% of the bacteria in saltwater tanks cannot affect human beings. with that being said, ive had many cuts and scrapes that i got while doing maintenance inside my tank. 10 yrs and still have yet to get sick from my aquarium. even then, i use shoulder length gloves and a face mask when working on my tank now ESPECIALLY WHEN SCRUBBING MY SKIMMER
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeSB http:///forum/thread/384993/everyone-always-says#post_3374897
over 95% of the bacteria in saltwater tanks cannot affect human beings. with that being said, ive had many cuts and scrapes that i got while doing maintenance inside my tank. 10 yrs and still have yet to get sick from my aquarium. even then, i use shoulder length gloves and a face mask when working on my tank now ESPECIALLY WHEN SCRUBBING MY SKIMMER
The stuff in the skimmer is what is floating free in your fish tank. LOL...I always wash my hands....just in case because it's pretty gross..
However I can't claim I have never had a problem with my fish tank germs, I itch after touching raw shrimp so I'm pretty sure I would have an allergic reaction to sea critters.
 
kiefers

kiefers

Active Member
Okay then, May I add a few things? Some of these statements are accurate however, we must note that for the most part we are for the most part healthy. With that said Our immune systems is able to battle off these foreign invaders in our tanks, nonetheless, if someone with an immune inefficiency should have a cut on their hand, arm, or finger their white blood cells or macrophages would be unable to eat away the bacteria that entered their blood stream. Keep in mind too that if even if one of you are already infected with even the common flu, respiratory infection, or god forbid MRSA, your chances of fighting off this foreign bacteria or any other bacteria is lessened by 37%. Even worse if your taking an antibiotic, which we all know does not discriminate from good or bad the body would have to work over time in ridding off the koodie bug.
Also, most living organisms form antibodies to ward off any attachment to the hemoglobin which would in some cases and pending on the bacteria and where it hibernates, mostly in the lungs and the stomach, would only become active when the immune system has been compromised.
With that said (yawn), we keep our tanks clean, for the most part, and with the streptococcal bacteria on our skin protecting us already, chances are slim unless getting severely injected by some kind of worm is possible but slim.
oh.... and my vote is to terminate the rat and eat the squirrel...... no wait..... send it to meowser's kitty!! Lol

(the bacteria guy)
 
kiefers

kiefers

Active Member
It should not go without saying of coarse that one should wear hand protection when handleing corals that have not been researched and two, what might be living underneath these corals. Palytoxins, which I believe is one of th two most deadliest toxins is very avassive if entered into the blood stream of it's victim. (LD50) I believe can cause serious sytem shut down like cardiac arrest, vascoconstriction and has been reported all over the coasts and in the aquaria community.
now with botulism, also a LD50 classification is the most toxic of the two and covers more of a variety of areas.
Nonetheless, the point is, yes we have corals that can be dangerous to us thus the need for protection and common sense, ie: don't rub your eyes after sticking them in the tank, don't suck your thumb, and mostly, if you have cuts or a skin condition, dry, chapped, whatever, either wait to mess with your tank or wear shoulder length hand/arm protection.
 
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