Experiment gone wrong?

[kiefers]

I have my 29G Biocube in cycle, well, it's rather towards the end but the Nitrates are still atound 10. A week ago I started to vodka dose the tank to see if it would decrease the time of the trate part of the cycle. I don't plan on putting anything in the tank until we get home from vacation so I thought i would play and see.
As of last night, everything but the trates were 0. 2 weeks ago I started to dose and everything was going great. The tank has only been in cycle for 3 weeks. this morning I woke to a cloudy bio cube, couln't even see the rock. I did a 5 gallon water change and now just sitting back and going to waite for advice. Got any??

 

[2quills]

From what I've heard in the past it's probably a bacteria bloom. Should go away on it's own if that's what it is.

 

[kiefers]

oh ya it's a bloom alright. Lol...... it looks like are bubbles in the tank. Good thing nothing is in there but dry rock. The trates are like undertectable at this moment. Will test again later, these API's are so unreliable.

 

[spanko]

How much were you dosing?

 

[flower]

To be able to vodka dose...you need a super good skimmer and lots and lots of extra oxygen. I run a bubble line (no stone)
I have been using the Aquaripure and it works great. They claim it's a little safer than straight vodka dosing...but to be honest it seems the same to me, they claim you don't need the super good skimmer with there filter, and that you don't even need one, but I had a good skimmer to start with so I wouldn't know about that claim. All the concerns to look for with vodka dosing are the same with the Aquaripure, except the dose is always the same and you don't have to play with it or increase it.

 

[florida joe]

With all due respect how much homework did you do on dosing a carbon source? You are starting a cycle as we all know the nitrogen cycle is nitrification and di- nitrification. The de-nitrification process other than by water changes takes time. IMO dosing in your case was not the thing to do. Starting at your stage it is going to prevent any anaerobic bacteria colonization from taking place as the biomass produced by the dosing will out compete anything else. You are now a slave to dosing. I have a difficult time thinking that within a week the dosing brought your nitrates down.
I would use a poly filter to deal with the organic bloom

 

[spanko]

To add to Joe's statement above....
"Another point is growth (which is why Heterotrophic bacteria are favored for cycling products); nitrifying (Autotrophic) bacteria will double in population every 15-24 hours under optimal growth conditions. Heterotrophic bacteria, on the other hand, can reproduce in as little as 15 minutes to 1 hour.
Unfortunately research has shown that up to one million times more of these heterotrophic bacteria are required to perform a comparable level of ammonia conversion that is attained by true autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, in part due to the fact of Heterotrophic Bacteria to convert many organics into food.
The use of only Heterotrophic Bacteria to cycle an aquarium (or pond) can result in a bio environment that does not contain the necessary Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria to rapidly adapt to changes in bio load either from added fish, wastes, or similar; thus often resulting in sudden spikes in ammonia or nitrites when these Heterotrophic bacteria cycling products are not added in a timely or regular schedule!
The other danger is cloudy water."

 

[travelerjp98]

To your answer, yes. Experiment gone wrong LOL.

 

[kiefers]

As with any experiment your right, homework is involved however I do dose my DT, and everything in there thrives. Nonetheless, this biocube was scrubbed, bleached and rinsed (several times) and ran a poly fiber to insure it's cleanliness, then added the raw shrimp. Once I did get the ammonia spike I sat and waited. Got the trite spiked, then the trates. It was then I started the process just to see what would happen. Now I know.
So, do I have to tear everything down and start over? We are leaving for S.C. Friday morning so I would have to do it before then.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiefers http:///forum/thread/387054/experiment-gone-wrong#post_3403356
As with any experiment your right, homework is involved however I do dose my DT, and everything in there thrives. Nonetheless, this biocube was scrubbed, bleached and rinsed (several times) and ran a poly fiber to insure it's cleanliness, then added the raw shrimp. Once I did get the ammonia spike I sat and waited. Got the trite spiked, then the trates. It was then I started the process just to see what would happen. Now I know.
So, do I have to tear everything down and start over? We are leaving for S.C. Friday morning so I would have to do it before then.
I would hate to be a slave to heterotrophs.

 

[kiefers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/387054/experiment-gone-wrong#post_3403359
I would hate to be a slave to heterotrophs.

well..... to every vise one must be a slave to something I guess. Nothing like a good butt chewing after a long ass day of slaving to patients and 1 guy dying of his personal "Dosing"!! ... some times I really hate my job.
In hine sight, I did kinda know better about dosing a new, not done cooking tank!! what was I thinking?...... oh waite, nothing!!

 

[kiefers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/387054/experiment-gone-wrong#post_3403096
How much were you dosing?
sorry, this post slipped past me...... this was 2-3 drops. I started with one drop daily for one week then 2 then 3 so 3 drops. (I swear!!) Even wrote it in my journal.
But, no skimmer, or air tubing as flower pointed out. I asked my fish guy if he could order me a skimmer so I pick that up after Pawleys Island. which is fine since now I may have to start all over again.

 

[kiefers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///forum/thread/387054/experiment-gone-wrong#post_3403159
With all due respect how much homework did you do on dosing a carbon source? You are starting a cycle as we all know the nitrogen cycle is nitrification and di- nitrification. The de-nitrification process other than by water changes takes time. IMO dosing in your case was not the thing to do. Starting at your stage it is going to prevent any anaerobic bacteria colonization from taking place as the biomass produced by the dosing will out compete anything else. You are now a slave to dosing. I have a difficult time thinking that within a week the dosing brought your nitrates down.
I would use a poly filter to deal with the organic bloom
respect taken into concideration and thank you for your input. I am rather embarrased to admit that I was hastey in thinking by doing this experiment I could indeed cut the cycle in half. I have read up on heterotrophic bacteria but my resourses were limited and it did not go into detail regarding the cycle. As you yourself stated, they will put anything online, and several of these posts on this bacteria said the same thing but zero on thee ramifications. i started the dosing after the nitrites went down and the trates went up. One drop daily times one week. Did this for three weeks increasing by one a week and I see that the bloom took place.
I tested my water today in fear or hopes, that dissimilation may have occurred, nope. But my results are as follows, Ammonia 0, Trites 0, Trates 0, pH 8.4. emp is 80.2.
What really gets my goat is the fact that I try to learn something new a day regarding the aquaria. Wether it be water chemistry, organics and inorganics, types of fish and corals, and or different products over the counter.
I dose my DT and have for a year now. (3.5 ml). Tonight I thought I better test my water in there, trates are around 40. they have never been that high. So what of the V. dosing? Increase? Quit cold turkey and do water changes weekly? (different topic all together lol.... sorry, just rambling now, tired)
Thanks again.

 

[spanko]

"High carbon availability increases the metabolic demand of heterotrophic bacteria for nitrogen. Under this condition heterotrophic bacteria can out-compete slower growing nitrifying bacteria for available NH4 +"
Also note....
"Heterotrophic Bacteria: Impact on Autotrophic Nitrifying Bacteria Heterotrophic bacteria can divide every 20 minutes, compared to every 12-20 hours for autotrophic bacteria. This indicates that, provided a sufficient food source is available, Heterotrophic bacteria can out-populate autotrophic nitrifying bacteria in our tanks by a factor of 4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696 to 11 over a 24 hour period."
IMO during the time you are gone on vacation and in the absence of carbon dosing the Heterotrophs may in fact die off and allow the slower growing anaerobes to grow in volume. I would add an air pump and stone to the system. I would also add a protein skimmer to the system. Both of those while you are away on vacation. This will help to oxygenate the water so if there is any life it well have available O2, and the skimmer to help remove dead and or decaying bacteria.
Couple of heady articles but fairly easy enough to follow.
http://www.uwlax.edu/biology/aquatics/Strauss%20PhD%20Dissertation.pdf

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/387054/experiment-gone-wrong#post_3403393
"High carbon availability increases the metabolic demand of heterotrophic bacteria for nitrogen. Under this condition heterotrophic bacteria can out-compete slower growing nitrifying bacteria for available NH4 +"
Also note....
"Heterotrophic Bacteria: Impact on Autotrophic Nitrifying Bacteria Heterotrophic bacteria can divide every 20 minutes, compared to every 12-20 hours for autotrophic bacteria. This indicates that, provided a sufficient food source is available, Heterotrophic bacteria can out-populate autotrophic nitrifying bacteria in our tanks by a factor of 4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696 to 11 over a 24 hour period."
IMO during the time you are gone on vacation and in the absence of carbon dosing the Heterotrophs may in fact die off and allow the slower growing anaerobes to grow in volume. I would add an air pump and stone to the system. I would also add a protein skimmer to the system. Both of those while you are away on vacation. This will help to oxygenate the water so if there is any life it well have available O2, and the skimmer to help remove dead and or decaying bacteria.
Couple of heady articles but fairly easy enough to follow.
http://www.uwlax.edu/biology/aquatics/Strauss%20PhD%20Dissertation.pdf
I wonder if we can get Meowzer to change your names on the site, I have no real idea of what you guys are saying, but I'm impressed.....LOL...I now dub thee both... Professor Spanko......and.....Doctor Florida Joe

 

[florida joe]

With the absence of skimmer in your bio cube how were you going to collect and export the bacterial biomass produced by the dosing?
Please explain this quote below.
Quote:
I tested my water today in fear or hopes, that dissimilation may have occurred
Quote:
I dose my DT and have for a year now. (3.5 ml). Tonight I thought I better test my water in there, trates are around 40
What were you nitrate and phosphate levels before you started doing your DT what did they drop to? nitrate testing has to be spot on as far as procedure
and to add to what Henry suggested i would add a piece of raw shrimp to add organics to your system bio cube while you are away
FYI Flower Meowzer has been calling me the Doctor of LOVE for years

 

[kiefers]

Okay there Dr. Love...Lol
One of the negative aspect to heterotrophs is that under certain environmental conditions they can operate in the reverse direction. In other words, they can convert nitrate back to nitrites and ammonia through a process called dissimilation. This is generally an anaerobic process, but, can occur during periods when dissolved oxygen levels are very low (DO £ 2.0 ppm). Dissimilation is a part of the denitrification process. Denitrification is the conversion (reduction) of nitrites and nitrate to gaseous nitrogen (N[sub]2, NO, N2[/sub]0).
This is what I was looking for when I tested the water. So now that everything is isometric (0) I add another shrimp and basically start over correct? I do have a skimmer for the cube but it's one that is made for the cube, not a good one at all, got another one on order from my fish guy.
My DT parameter were high, I am unable to find the paper pad that had that information now. Thinking of just D/C'g the V dosing altogether. I DO have a skimmer for this tank and empty it weekly.

 

[kiefers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/387054/experiment-gone-wrong#post_3403393
"High carbon availability increases the metabolic demand of heterotrophic bacteria for nitrogen. Under this condition heterotrophic bacteria can out-compete slower growing nitrifying bacteria for available NH4 +"
Also note....
"Heterotrophic Bacteria: Impact on Autotrophic Nitrifying Bacteria Heterotrophic bacteria can divide every 20 minutes, compared to every 12-20 hours for autotrophic bacteria. This indicates that, provided a sufficient food source is available, Heterotrophic bacteria can out-populate autotrophic nitrifying bacteria in our tanks by a factor of 4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696 to 11 over a 24 hour period."
IMO during the time you are gone on vacation and in the absence of carbon dosing the Heterotrophs may in fact die off and allow the slower growing anaerobes to grow in volume. I would add an air pump and stone to the system. I would also add a protein skimmer to the system. Both of those while you are away on vacation. This will help to oxygenate the water so if there is any life it well have available O2, and the skimmer to help remove dead and or decaying bacteria.
Couple of heady articles but fairly easy enough to follow.
http://www.uwlax.edu/biology/aquatics/Strauss%20PhD%20Dissertation.pdf
I wish I knew how to do this multi quote thing..... aaaaaawwwwhhhhhh...
I am familiar with these sites you mention. The Oscarfish was mainly freshwater tanks I believe. Thought water chemistry was different between the two. So, I disregarded it but kept a few things in mind.

 

[spanko]

Freshwater tanks, marine tanks, the chemistry is the same, the players (bacteria phylum)) may be different.

 

[florida joe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiefers http:///forum/thread/387054/experiment-gone-wrong#post_3403430
Okay there Dr. Love...Lol
One of the negative aspect to heterotrophs is that under certain environmental conditions they can operate in the reverse direction. In other words, they can convert nitrate back to nitrites and ammonia through a process called dissimilation. This is generally an anaerobic process, but, can occur during periods when dissolved oxygen levels are very low (DO £ 2.0 ppm). Dissimilation is a part of the denitrification process. Denitrification is the conversion (reduction) of nitrites and nitrate to gaseous nitrogen (N[sub]2, NO, N2[/sub]0).
This is what I was looking for when I tested the water. So now that everything is isometric (0) I add another shrimp and basically start over correct? I do have a skimmer for the cube but it's one that is made for the cube, not a good one at all, got another one on order from my fish guy.
My DT parameter were high, I am unable to find the paper pad that had that information now. Thinking of just D/C'g the V dosing altogether. I DO have a skimmer for this tank and empty it weekly.
Heterotopic bacteria can in fact live in high as well as in low oxygen levels as a matter of fact there are types of heterotrophic bacteria that are facultative anaerobes (function with or without oxygen).
As far as heterotopic bacteria dying and reintroducing ammonia into the tank through dissimilation, the only time I have ever heard of this was though study’s that evaluated commercial products for the removal of nitrogenous waste not bacteria grown from introducing a carbon source such as vodka. I would very much like to see a study on the effects of low oxygen on bacteria grown this way.
Dinitrification is also accomplished without conversion to nitrogen gas. That method is assimilation and harvesting which is what we have to do in vodka dosing.
I am not too sure about dissimilation as you state it, by definition dissimilation is the
breakdown in living organisms of more complex substances into simpler ones together with release of energy. During the nitrogen cycle are we braking down or converting