Expert Advice Needed - Sand Swap (possible "Old Tank Syndrome")

[pinstripe]

I'm looking for anyone with experience with this....someone who has done it before, or has a really good handle on the life cycle of sand beds. I've trolled around, and read quite a few posts regarding this subject, but nothing exactly related to the problem I am facing.
In short, 75 gallon, up for over 3 years, an upgrade from a 30 I had for a total of 5.5 years. MH lights, regular maintenance, levels all in normal range.......except for nitrates....they are out of control.....currently at 80ppm on a high range test. If you must know every parameter, I'll be happy to post, but in the interest of time, those are the highlights.
Brief history.....about 6 to 9 months ago, saw a slow, painful coral die-off. Arrogant and foolish, didn't test, thought maybe some fish were acting up.....found out about 2 months ago during some testing that everything was ok, but again, nitrates were high. I took the test after a water change and blowing some detritus off the rock, so I figured the spike was due to that.....again, foolish.
Well now I am convinced that I have a major problem, and I think it is with my sandbed. All of my inverts, less a few blue hermits have died. I have done weekly (sometimes more often) water changes to no avail. I have slowly removed the biomedia from my canister (don't run a fuge) which helped initially (80 down to 40 ppm). I run carbon, change it regularly, have run PURIGEN, took that out after it was exausted.
Now I'm thinking that my only salvation would be to swap out the sand bed. I am really nervous about doing this in the display tank (don't have a second, AGAIN......foolish), and I am really in need of suggestions of how to do this safely, without harming livestock (i.e. avoid a cycle, toxin release etc.)
For the longest time, I never had to touch my tank, and have great success! I think however that my "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude toward husbandry has finallly caught up with me. I'll put in the work, I just need to know what to do.
Thanks in advance!

 

[gemmy]

First, what test kit are you using?

 

[snakeblitz33]

How deep is your sand bed?
What test kits are you using?
How old are your test kits?
What is your phosphate reading?
What lighting do you have and what is your illumination period?
Do you have any algae problems... hair algae, batafora, etc. etc.

 

[kiefers]

I don't believe this problem is due to the sand bed, I would personally go get some new test kits and test for ammonia and nitrates.
I do not want to insult you by any means but what is your saliity level. Seems to me some of your lab values may be way off. I would begin here.
If by chance it is your sand bed, we will light that fire cracker when it's time.
With this being said, do you have good water movement and water aggitation at the top and what type of top do you have, meaning, is it open or closed. Gas exchange could also be a factor here. Start with the above first and then get back with us with the results. (sorry for your delima)

 

[snakeblitz33]

Coral and invert die off is most of the time associated with a few different things, but none relate to the sand bed. If you have a deep sand bed (over 6") and it's been set up for more than 5 years, you can start to see black striations of hydrogen sulfide... which if you stir up can cause your tank to crash.
Corals and inverts usually die with salinity being out of whack - too high or too low (Always test with a refractometer), the presence of an elevated amount of copper... from tap water, bad RO water, using brass fittings on RO storage containers, Excess phosphate in the system caused by overfeeding etc and not enough nutrient export.... There's other ways too... but that's the jist.

 

[pinstripe]

Wow....thanks for the speedy replies.
Sand bed is 2 to 2.5 inches (70lbs when I set it up, no new sand added)
I use either Salifert of Red Sea Pro....all brand new....HOWEVER, I use API nitrate test because the Red Sea Pro that I have for Nitrates only goes to 4 ppm
Phosphate is 0.04
I have hair algae taking over my coralline.....for the first time in the life of my tank
I have 4 Hydror PHs...each at 400gpd......the return from the canister agitates the top (open top).......Reef Octopus skimmer, it rocks!
Oh, and my SG is 1.025 with a refractometer. I brought this up slowly over 2 months from 1.022
I use R/O water, which I tested yesterday prior to a water change....and all of the parameters are ideal, before and after mixed with salt.
I'm leaving the house for a few hours, but will be back later this afternoon. Thank you all again!

 

[pinstripe]

OH, and I don't test for copper

 

[snakeblitz33]

I don't know what you mean by "ideal" an accurate TDS reading is better then "ideal" But, I'll work with the info that you gave.
A 2" deep sandbed has absolutely no effect on nitrate and phosphate.
My suspicion is that your API nitrate test kit is out of whack. It's probably no longer accurate - which is causing your high nitrate readings. So, try to either buy a new test kit or don't worry about it for now.
If you can, buy a copper test kit and test your tank for any sign of copper - or take it to you LFS and have them do it. There are also several websites that you can send your water to and they will give an absolute accurate test of your water. Never use any copper or brass fittings in your RO storage containers or have it come in contact with any of your top off water or storage water.
Have you calibrated your refractometer recently? You may want to pick up some 35ppt calibration fluid to make sure you get it absolutely accurate.
If you have hair algae in your tank, your nitrate and phosphate will actually be pretty low, because the algae starts to eat the nitrate and phosphate. I recommend everyone to try an algae scrubber to get rid of hair algae out of their tanks and improve their water quality. It's something to think about.
What is your clean up crew consist of? Nassarius Vibex snails are pretty good for turning over your sand bed if it needs some turnover.
Need a pic of your tank when you can.

 

[btldreef]

Salifert, API and Red Sea Nitrate test kits are known to be very inaccurate and read high. Go get yourself a SeaChem Nitrite/Nitrate combo kit. It is the only one on the market that I've seen give an accurate reading other than a probe. This has been tested by a few larger names in the business and my local aquarium as well, so besides experiencing it myself, I tend to believe it's true. Other people on this forum have also experienced how inaccurate the API reads. I drove myself nuts a while back because I had high nitrate readings. I added a canister filter to my setup just to add water flow and to run extra media. I added a refugium. I reseeded my sand. I got rid of some fish. I cut back on feeding as much. Did all the things that are recommended, only to find out that my issue was a darn inaccurate test kit.
Can you post a full tank shot?
I don't think it's your sand bed. Do you have any local hobbyist near you, or any local fish store that has a nice established reef that you can buy a cup or two of sand from? I reseed my tank every 6-12 months. Just a cup or two would be enough in your size system.
Just curious on what fish are in this tank? What do you feed them and how often?
I'm not a fan of canister filters on this size setup, and this really may be part of your issue. Canister filters can work fine for awhile, but really can become little nitrate factories. Is there anyway for you to upgrade to a sump?
What brand of carbon are you running? How often do you change it? I noticed that carbon gets exhausted quicker in a canister filter than it does in a sump. I really recommend Chemi Pure, especially if you're running a canister.
How often do you do water changes? How much do you usually change out? What brand of salt do you use?
How often do you clean your canister filter? How do you clean it?

 

[pinstripe]

Ok, so here is a full tank shot, and a pic of the sandbed on the side of the glass.
Stock list include:
Pair of Cinnamon Clowns (or very dark tomoato)
Royal Gramma
Firefish
Yellow Tang
Blue Tang
All of the above have been in the tank for at least 3 years, the clowns have been in for 5.5 (total time i've had them)
Fuge is not an option in the current setup. We plan on moving in the next few years, and I will have a new setup altogether (with fuge)....this tank I'll do something else with.
I typically run Kent carbon, and change once a month. Some people say change in 3 days, some people say 3 months...I go once a month. I'm not saying it's right, it has just never failed me in 5 years of this hobby.
Right now the canister only has the 4 sponge filters (fluval 405), 2 polishing pads, and CHEMIPURE ELITE.....added this yesterday....I guess we'll see
I do water changes once a week....but for a while I wasn't doing them at all! I bet at one point I went at least 6 months with no changes, and the tank was awesome!
I change 5 to 10 gallons at a time (10 gallons yesterday). I use IO Reef Crystals and R/O water which again, tests perfecto
The canister sponges are replaced once a month. I used to rinse off the ceramic rings once every other month, but I have removed them over time as I previously posted.
Thanks for all of your help guys......BTLDreef, I hope this answers your questions and gets us to the right answer!

 

[pinstripe]

To give you an idea, this is what my tank looked like a year and a half ago
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/373189/quick-5-pack-to-look-at#post_3231922

 

[snakeblitz33]

Sounds like you're doing all the right things. I don't do water changes on my tanks but maybe once a year, so I doubt that it's that bad not to do a water change in 6 months. Have you ever fed your corals? Phytoplankton, mysis, brine shrimp, rotifers, any live foods? When was the last time you changed your light bulbs?
I'm pretty sure that it's your test kit that is giving an inaccurate reading at this point.
As for the sandbed - the red that is building up is cyano. All older sandbeds have cyano building up in them. Cyano is present in every established system and it's nothing to worry about. If you don't already have them, I suggest getting some nassarius vibex snails so that they can turn over your sandbed a little more and that will help some of your concern.
kKeep doing water changes when you can. Make sure your skimmer is running properly, and feed your corals!

 

[gemmy]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to check all your equipment to make sure it's operating correctly.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Good idea Gemmy! to add on to that, I would also like to say that you could check your tank for stray voltage with a voltmeter. Very low voltages over a long period of time can have a detrimental effect on more sensitive corals and inverts.

 

[pinstripe]

Coals get fed phytoplankton....the anemone you are looking at is actually 2.....it split a few month ago. It (they) eat anything that floats their way.
The voltage theory is an interesting idea. I guess I could have a bad powerhead or something. But given the sensitivity of the anemone, I have a few questions now
1) Wouldn't you think the anemone would be affected by voltage, or, a chemistry problem (if it is copper)?
2) Why do only certain species of coral die, others thrive?......also inverts.....all blue leg hermits live, all red leg hermits die (i've added inverts to help with the cleanup, and they just die off)
3) Even if the invert die offs could be explained by voltage, would that simpl cause an increase in hair algae? Or maybe it is the result of lack of maintenance from the lack of a cleanup crew?
Thoughts on this?

 

[gemmy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinstripe http:///t/389014/expert-advice-needed-sand-swap-possible-old-tank-syndrome#post_3434776
Coals get fed phytoplankton....the anemone you are looking at is actually 2.....it split a few month ago. It (they) eat anything that floats their way.
The voltage theory is an interesting idea. I guess I could have a bad powerhead or something. But given the sensitivity of the anemone, I have a few questions now
1) Wouldn't you think the anemone would be affected by voltage, or, a chemistry problem (if it is copper)? IME, anemones are super sensitive to rapid changes in water chemistry. If the change happened gradually over a period of time, it is possible that the anemone adapted to the change.
2) Why do only certain species of coral die, others thrive?......also inverts.....all blue leg hermits live, all red leg hermits die (i've added inverts to help with the cleanup, and they just die off) Some are hardier than others, what corals would you say thrive in your tank?
3) Even if the invert die offs could be explained by voltage, would that simpl cause an increase in hair algae? Or maybe it is the result of lack of maintenance from the lack of a cleanup crew? The die offs would cause a spike in excess nutrients in the system which in turn is food for the hair algae. The lack of the CUC allows the hair algae to thrive.
Thoughts on this?

 

[pinstripe]

I have a frogspawn that grows like a weed. Red mushrooms doing well. Colt doing well.
Lost a bright green trumpet, spaghetti leather, about 4 or 5 different kinds of zoas, australian acan........can't remember what else off the top of my head but it's going to upset me if i keep writing.
As far as the clean up crew, I just got 6 small turbo snails, drip acclimated etc. Now, if they die off within a week or 2, what would be the answer then if it is in fact chemical and not electrical?
It's almost like, i need a crew, so I add them in, but they die, which perpetuates the cycle that is being talked about on this thread.......and so on and so on.......
Also, point well taken earlier about the crappy API tests.....i do agree.....however, I think the the new Red Sea Pro's are pretty accurate. I have no basis for this other than my comparisons to my Salifert tests, but easier to use. Just my opinion, don't kill me over it, I don't own stock in the company or anything. It's just that when I started, all you heard about was Salifert, and although considered a high end test, they were expensive, expired too quickly and were difficult to read. To settle this, I'll do an entire panel, then take a sample to my LFS which uses SeaChem I think, and do a level comparison. That said, I just tested the low-end on the Red Sea Pro for nitrate, and it went off the scale. I can only believe that if that is off the scale, and the API (although agreed inaccurate) is showing in the 40 to 80 range, the nitrate level has to be a problem to some extent.
Which brings me back to the original question in the post.....although now i have other avenues to explore as to the overall health of my tank, would a re-seed or sand swap be worth a try for the nitrate level?

 

[snakeblitz33]

The only thing that re-seeding a sandbed does is diversify the microorganisms that live there. I also believe that it can add nitrate and phosphate from someone elses tank into yours. It's better to figure out the source(s) of your problem(s) first, before trying to add additional life to the tank. Here is what I would do if I were in your position:
1. Figure out which test kits are accurate
2. test the tank for excess copper.
3. test for stray voltage.
4. 50% water change
5. Add an algae scrubber to reduce nitrate and phosphates
6. if I still can't figure it out - tear the tank down to search for a coral eating bristleworm, crabs, shrimps, etc. that shouldn't be there. Also, check the tank for flat worms, red bugs, gorilla crabs, coral eating crabs, etc. by putting the live rock in a hypersalinity solution (SG 1.035 1.040) and see what vacates the live rock. You would never know unless you check!

 

[pinstripe]

I think I will follow your list to the T.............
but doesn't an algae scurbber require a fuge? I have read your thread on the subject, very interesting.....actually awesome natural solution......but I don't think I can run that with just a canister right?
and by the way......does "old tank syndrome" actually exist? I've heard very conflicting opinions. I'd like to hear what you all think!

 

[gemmy]

I would follow Snake's advice. I believe old tank syndrome does occur. Overtime, the microfauna in our tanks diminishes certain varieties through survival of the fittest. To add diversity, I believe in adding true live sand (from a trusted LFS or reefer) to an existing system.