Expert Advice Needed...

[coolguy818]

Before I ask the question of the century, let me give a background of my tank. Its a 29g Reef. At one point I had 8 fish in my little 29g, but after reading all the posts about how dumb that was. I watched all 8 fish die 1 at a time.
I had clowns, tangs, gobys, angels, and so on. Anyways.
My tank has been running fishless, for the past 2 weeks now. I have been doing my weekly water changes religiously (15% water change). The tank looks great. I will post an update here https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/273539/coolguys-29g-reef-with-alot-of-pics later.
Feeding: 1/2 cube Cyclopleeze + 1/2 cube Coralife Coral Food every 3 days.
I just did a water change (15%), Changed the filter media (every 2 weeks), of the HOB filter. Thouroughly cleaned the skimmer. And I just took a water test just right now:
Temp - 80.1
Specific Gravity - 1.027
PH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20
Calcium - 440
dKH - 8
Phosphates - 0
So I think you can probably tell, the next question:
WHY DO I STILL HAVE NITRATES!!!!!??????!!!!!!
I took a test before the water change and it was close to 40-60ppm.......
I need help with this. Please.

 

[slowburn22]

Is there something dead in your tank? I would get a buddies nitrate kit and get a second opinion... Or you could take a sample to the LFS.
I've never found nitrates without the presence of ammonia.

 

[autofreak44]

Originally Posted by Coolguy818
Before I ask the question of the century, let me give a background of my tank. Its a 29g Reef. At one point I had 8 fish in my little 29g, but after reading all the posts about how dumb that was. I watched all 8 fish die 1 at a time.
I had clowns, tangs, gobys, angels, and so on. Anyways.
My tank has been running fishless, for the past 2 weeks now. I have been doing my weekly water changes religiously (15% water change). The tank looks great. I will post an update here https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/273539/coolguys-29g-reef-with-alot-of-pics later.
Feeding: 1/2 cube Cyclopleeze + 1/2 cube Coralife Coral Food every 3 days.
I just did a water change (15%), Changed the filter media (every 2 weeks), of the HOB filter. Thouroughly cleaned the skimmer. And I just took a water test just right now:
Temp - 80.1
Specific Gravity - 1.027
PH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20
Calcium - 440
dKH - 8
Phosphates - 0
So I think you can probably tell, the next question:
WHY DO I STILL HAVE NITRATES!!!!!??????!!!!!!
I took a test before the water change and it was close to 40-60ppm.......
I need help with this. Please.
having nitrates around that range is normal for a young tank, and especialy one that has had that tramatic of a past... anyway, the best way to bring down the trates is just keep up on the water changes, and time is the best cure, becasue there are bacteria and algae and stuff that wil actualy remove nitrate from the water, its just a matter of time before that stuff grows... in my book, 20 ppm nitrate is actually ok, although 5-10 would be better. try doing one big water change and letting the trates come down... also try testing your water change water before you put it in your tank and test it for trates to make sure the trates arent comming from that... also, i would change your feeding from what its at now to maybe 1/4 cube of each every other day... hope this helps

 

[coolguy818]

Nothing dead...... I also took a sample to the LFS...... Same result.

 

[autofreak44]

Originally Posted by slowburn22
Is there something dead in your tank? I would get a buddies nitrate kit and get a second opinion... Or you could take a sample to the LFS.
I've never found nitrates without the presence of ammonia.
thats bad if you have never found nitrates without ammonia... ammonia is supposed to be converted into nitrite and then nitrate, therefore leaving the water ammonialess and full ov nitrates...

 

[coolguy818]

Originally Posted by autofreak44
having nitrates around that range is normal for a young tank, and especialy one that has had that tramatic of a past... anyway, the best way to bring down the trates is just keep up on the water changes, and time is the best cure, becasue there are bacteria and algae and stuff that wil actualy remove nitrate from the water, its just a matter of time before that stuff grows... in my book, 20 ppm nitrate is actually ok, although 5-10 would be better. try doing one big water change and letting the trates come down... also try testing your water change water before you put it in your tank and test it for trates to make sure the trates arent comming from that... also, i would change your feeding from what its at now to maybe 1/4 cube of each every other day... hope this helps

I will try that, it could be the feeding.

 

[slowburn22]

Originally Posted by autofreak44
thats bad if you have never found nitrates without ammonia... ammonia is supposed to be converted into nitrite and then nitrate, therefore leaving the water ammonialess and full ov nitrates...
I havent ever found anything testable after a cycle... And during cycling, my nitrates test 0 and then when ammonia tests 0 my nitrate follows... Im no chemist, just going off what I've seen.
I would agree with you though that he should continue to do water changes. Its probably due to the tank dying off like you said.

 

[puffer32]

I would love to have a tank with 0 trates, never happened for me. My 150 has trates of 20, only went down to 10 after a 60 gal water change once. My 55 DT trates are at 15, i am happy with that. I wouldn't be to concerned about trates at 20, it could be alot worse

 

[slowburn22]

I wonder if its because I underfeed and overskim? I also run carbon here and there.... Could that be why I have 0 nitrates?

 

[sjimmyh]

Originally Posted by slowburn22
I wonder if its because I underfeed and overskim? I also run carbon here and there.... Could that be why I have 0 nitrates?
Nitrates are the end cycle of aerobic (Oxygen using) bacteria converting breaking down ammonia. I am sure most of us are aware of this, if not all.
Nitrates therefore will build up in our tanks depending on quite a few things, here are some:
Uneaten Food
Die Off
Ditritus
Fish and Coral Wastes
Not surprising, these all give you ammonia, right? Well, with a well established aerobic bacteria bed, anything that would normally give you ammonia will give you nitrates instead. Again, pretty basic and most of us know this.
Okay, so what uses up nitrates? What makes em go away?
Algae (micro and macro)
Cyanobacteria
Diatoms
Anaerobic Bacteria (no Oxygen present)
Water Changes
Most of this is pretty common sense in how much nitrates is used up. The more of this stuff to remove nitrate and the less you will have measurable in your tanks.
Anaerobic Bacteria require the absense of Oxygen to convert Nitrates to Nitrogen. This happens in the deep low flow areas of the sand bed, deep within the live rock pores and in nitrate reactors (though these are hardly ever used anymore due to high expense and the fact the same thing can be done with just more live rock and sand). There are tons of ways to set up tanks to promote this anaerobic bacteria to grow. Mud in the fuge, plenums, and deep sand beds are some of the more common ones.
Why do some people have trates and some don't? Its simple math. If more things are happening to create nitrate then remove them they will slowly build up. Want less nitrates? Feed less. Have less fish per gallon. Buy more live rock. Create a plenum or deepen your sand bed. Use a fuge with a mud layer on the bottom. Do more water changes. Do BIGGER water changes. Ensure your make up water doesn't have any trates. Get plants for your tank. Grow plants in a fuge. You just have to find out what works for what you have.

 

[coolguy818]

Originally Posted by SJimmyH
Why do some people have trates and some don't? Its simple math. If more things are happening to create nitrate then remove them they will slowly build up. Want less nitrates? Feed less. Have less fish per gallon. Buy more live rock. Create a plenum or deepen your sand bed. Use a fuge with a mud layer on the bottom. Do more water changes. Do BIGGER water changes. Ensure your make up water doesn't have any trates. Get plants for your tank. Grow plants in a fuge. You just have to find out what works for what you have.
What if all those issues have been answered and still no answer is present? I have a 4 inch sand bed, 45-50lbs of LR, NO fish, I feed twice a week, Water change once a week, new water is pristine ( RO + Red Sea Pro Coral Salt). The only difference is that I don't have a fuge. But on the flip side, my tank is a breeding ground for pods...... I got hundereds, if not thousands.

 

[sjimmyh]

Consider a fuge. I never attained a zero trate tank until I started using them. Even with a huge plenum in my old 125 gal tank I still ran around 10 ppm on average. My 65 gal reef (my last one before the present tank) was my first fuge using tank. I spiked to about 30 ppm trates after the initial cycle and it then went to zero. Occationally, I would test and get trace (5ppm) trates, but that was a rarity.
Fuges are mostly about algae scrubbing and not about the pods. Pods are the side bennefit.

 

[slowburn22]

That was beautiful Jimmy. Its not that I havent paid attention every time someone explains the whole "Nitrogen Cycle", its just that it makes my brain want to explode. Thats why I bought a color matching test kit and rely on guys like you to make it clear to me when a question arises.

 

[gatorwpb]

Do you think your corals really need all that feeding? Do any of them require special feeding? or are you just hoping to get better growth?
Maybe try to cut back on feeding altogether until the trates comes down.
Im a fuge user and can over feed because I know my fuge keeps my water pristine. Cleanup crew does a great job too.

 

[coolguy818]

Well, I got 2 brains, a torch, a hammer, a frogspawn, and an infamous Sun Coral. Those are my main eaters..... I also got many rics, and other mushrooms.
10-15 Hermits
10 Nessarius Snails
10-15 Turbo snails.

 

[sjimmyh]

If a fuge is out of the question then plant something like mermaids brush or halimeda in the tank.
You could do calerpa, but if you have a tang, he will just mow it down. Calerpa can also go sexual in which it kind of disolves away into a bazillion mobile little swimmies. This takes a ton of oxygen to do this and can actually starve your tank animals and bacteria bed of O2. So, I stay away from calerpa. Using a 24/7 light regime on calerpa helps minimize the chance of this, but its still a possible occurrance.
Chaeto would work also, but in the DT it wouldn't look very pretty.
Without some plant life to suck up the trates its not easy to do with only live rock and live sand beds. Try less food and less livestock per gallon. This would work, but that usually takes away fun (feeding) and animals (ouch, I wouldn't want to even think about having less animals in my tank as I only know the word "more stuff" when talking about my reef).
If its possible to fit, consider more live rock and sand since this would provide more "homes" for anaerobic bacteria.
You said that all possible venues have been addressed, but it can't be possible. You wouldn't be posting about trates if you had. Not saying you are lying or anything... just encouraging you to try more.

 

[blb9]

Check out your sand bed. When you stirr it, does a bunch of detritus come out? If so, you should vacuum the sand bed to get all that crap out.
How big are the grains of your sand bed? A deep sand bed must have grains of .1 to 1 millimetere in diameter. I recommend that any sand bed have small grains, because detritus will not seep down in to the substrate and pollute your tank.
A far as Caulerpa goes, I suggest that wherever you put it, it is in good flow. If nitrates are at 20 ppm, the caulerpa will grow like crazy.

 

[puffer32]

I would not vacuum a sand bed, not a good idea! Get some sand sifters to do that for you.

 

[blb9]

I would not vacuum a oolitic (small-grained) sand bed simply because you can't. The sand particles are small enough to be sucked up with the detritus. What you should vacuum are sand beds that have grain sizes approaching crushed coral (2-5mm).
Think about it. If a bed has grains big enough to allow detritus to seep in and pollute your tank without bacteria to process it, woulnd't this be a nitrate factory?
I have heard you need an extremely large tank to house sand sifting stars, but I have never had any expirience with these.

 

[coolguy818]

Originally Posted by SJimmyH
If a fuge is out of the question then plant something like mermaids brush or halimeda in the tank.
You could do calerpa, but if you have a tang, he will just mow it down. Calerpa can also go sexual in which it kind of disolves away into a bazillion mobile little swimmies. This takes a ton of oxygen to do this and can actually starve your tank animals and bacteria bed of O2. So, I stay away from calerpa. Using a 24/7 light regime on calerpa helps minimize the chance of this, but its still a possible occurrance.
Chaeto would work also, but in the DT it wouldn't look very pretty.
Without some plant life to suck up the trates its not easy to do with only live rock and live sand beds. Try less food and less livestock per gallon. This would work, but that usually takes away fun (feeding) and animals (ouch, I wouldn't want to even think about having less animals in my tank as I only know the word "more stuff" when talking about my reef).
If its possible to fit, consider more live rock and sand since this would provide more "homes" for anaerobic bacteria.
You said that all possible venues have been addressed, but it can't be possible. You wouldn't be posting about trates if you had. Not saying you are lying or anything... just encouraging you to try more.
Well to answer most of you entire post all I can say is: I posted earlier about having a fishless tank. All I have is the cleanup crew listed above and 1 CBS and a Cleaner shrimp.......... I had an ick epidemic.