Filteration and copper and substrate?

[kmoore88]

I'm a newbie...
3 month old FISH ONLY tank,configured below:
46 gal w/ 20 gal sump for dry-wet trickle
9lbs of live rock (I know I'm light on the rock)
Protein skimmer
Water temp = 78
Fish Load:
1 Molly (this guy won't die despite all my foul-ups..I'm thinking of adopting him) (active and in good health)
1 Percula Clown (tank rasied) (health - same as Molly)
1 Coral Beauty (new, active but he won't eat since added - about 8 days ago)
Issue:
I started with an Emperor 400 (biowheel) and plain pebble rock for a substrate; after doing more research about my new hobby I decided to switch over to a Wet-Dry Trickle/Protein Skimmer set-up. The Wet-Dry has been hooked up for a week. Water chemical/quality are all w/in acceptable limits, tho the nitrates are at about 30ppm , which appear to be a little high from what I have read on here. Also, because of an ich outbreak three weeks ago (the current fish do not "appear" to have ich, the ones that did died from an overdose of Rid-Ich 3 weeks ago), I have been running copper at the .15 level for the past 3 weeks and intend to for the next 2-3 months (at the recommendation of the LFS)..so, no carbon filtratation is in place.
My questions.
1) When would it be safe to disconnect the Emperor given point two below (regarding "helpful" bacteria). (the Wet-Dry has been in place for a week)
2) I should probably change the pebble to crushed coral or live sand; Recommendations? If I do, should I replace all of it? or about half or just leave it as is...or....???
Thanks in advance.
[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: kmoore88 ]
[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: kmoore88 ]
[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: kmoore88 ]

 

[mr . salty]

First off,you do need more rock.Second,ich only needs 21 days to treat.Much more than that and the copper will do more harm than good.#3,If you are using "copper" the live rock you have in there now is,and will be dead forever.Unless you are using"coppersafe"or a similar medication that stays suspended in the water,not soak into the rock.#4 That pebble substrate HAS TO GO. It is probably why you are showing high levels of nitrate.I would HIGHLY reccomend getting a 3-4" LIVE SAND bed in there.But not till the copper is out of the tank.And lastly,If your fish store told you to treat with copper for three months,and sold you the pebble substrate,I would seriously look for another store.This guy obviously doesn't know squat about saltwater.....Let us know exactly what kind(name) of copper you are using so we can help with further complications...

 

[kmoore88]

Thanks for the response.
To answer your question on the copper. It's CRX Parasite Terminator by MEI (Copper Formalin Complex). The IFS
recommended I continue a .15 level until I am done buying fish (in about 2-3 months) for my tank and then discontinue. I don't have a quarentine tank, but according to many on this site I probably should, but then again, now I have two tanks to attempt to maintain the appropriate water quality and I'm having a tough
time w/ just the one. I'd have to cycle the quaratine tank as well I assume?
I've read a lot about nitrate on this site and I am left very confused.
Those that say you needn't worry about Nitrates at levels 50 or below for FO
set-ups and those that say anything greater than 10 is a problem. Likewise,
some say live rock helps and those that say it only adds to a nitrate
problem in addition some of the inverts that tag along can cause problem in your tank. Sand vs CC is also debated, I went w/ the pebble because it doesn't cloud when I do a water change/gravel siphon and cleans up very nicely from what I can tell.. The "live" rock I have really isn't live it's coral/rock that came from the IFS' copper treated tanks...porus, etc - which I read is what helps w/ nitrates and not necessarily the "live" aspect of the rock. And there are coil denitrifiers which I really don't need if 50ppm or below is ok....so what and who to believe is a real problem for a newbie.

 

[mr . salty]

Who to believe??? We are not trying to separate you from your money. I strongly dissagree with the prolonged copper use.This will hamper your tanks ability to build a stable bio system,and harm your fish.Still do not know if your copper treatment is the "safe"kind or not.Also I hope you didn't pay too much(if anything) for that dead rock out of his copper tanks.Sounds to me like your store has very little confidence in his fishes health,or your ability to keep healthy fish.PLEASE LOOSE THE PEBBLES. That is a freshwater substrate.A salt water tank needs CC or sand to help stabalise the system.Not just a pretty bottom. Most of the nitrafying bacteria lives in the substrate.Pebbles do not provide the pourous surface needed for this bacteria to grow. It also will trap uneaten food and other fish waste where it will break down causing high nitrates.VERY HIGH NITRATES. And by the time you notice a rise,it's almost too late to do much to reverse the problem.CC(crushed coral) also causes this problem.That is why I push live sand....

 

[kmoore88]

Thanks again. So, I should discontinue the copper at this point, it's been over three weeks since the ich outbreak. How long do I wait for the copper to clear out before replacing the pebble w/ live sand or cc? Or do I have to completely break the tank down because I've added copper to the system?

 

[beth]

Everything Salty said is absolutely correct. If I were you, I'd not only loose the copper treatment and the pepples, I'd also loose the LFS.
I try not to be drammatic or extreme, but at this point, I'd go so far as to suggest that you take this tank apart and start over fresh [or, in this case marine--the right way.
Setup a cheap QT for your fish while you re-structure a real marine tank and not this quasi setup.
The tank is ruined with so much copper. You need sand or crushed coral, preferable sand, and, I think you made a mistake with the wet-dry--which is one of the problems with your nitrates.
Sorry, you're having so much difficulty. But, sometimes its better to get out while the gettin' is good, and begin anew.

 

[kmoore88]

So now a wet-dry is a mistake for a FO set-up...great...I think it's time for me to exit stage right from this hobby.

 

[jacrmill]

i dont think a wet/dry is too bad for a FO setup. it will cause you to have higher nitrates but they will be within reason for a FO setup if you do regular water changes. run carbon in your filter to get rid of the copper in your tank. also as stated many times lose the pebbles. go for live sand and add some live rock. these will help with some of the nitrates created by your wet/dry. though you are having many problems i think they can be fixed. just stop adding copper, run some carbon, change the substrate and hope your fish live through it. also i didnt mention but maybe i should, you should probably move your fish to another tank when you change substrates. good luck and why would you quit this hobby after youve already done the hard part which is getting through the cycle? trust me, stick with it, though it can get frustrating its really rewarding. as stated above you realy might wanna find a new LFS or make sure you know your stuff before you go in there.

 

[kmoore88]

Thanks Jacrmill. I've put in new carbon filters and will remove/replace any porus rock at the same time in prepartion for swapping out the substrate - assuming I can get the copper levels down to an acceptable level. One of the disadvantages I have read about concenring a LS/LR set-up is that you're severely limited in what can be done w/ viral/parasitic outbreaks. Certainly you can isolate the affected fish and treat but what can been done in cases of ICH where the tank really needs to be treated in addition to the fish? According to some, UV filters are a good play, but in the end if you have a breakout like ICH what can be done? you can't move 6 fish to a 20 gallon tank for 3-4 weeks waiting for the ICH to die off. Thoughts?

 

[slk3599]

K...
Just a few more suggestions, if you are up to it
I am running a wet/dry on my 75g FOWLR tank.
I currently have nitrates in the 10-20 ppm area, which is totally acceptable for a Fish Only tank. To keep lower nitrates once the cycle is complete you need to do regular scheduled water changes and avoid over feeding. I change out 10-15 gallons of water each week, but most people do it every 2 weeks. Also rinsing the bio-balls of your wet dry in saltwater (use the water from the change) regularly will dislodge any debris that has gotten stuck in there and causes nitrates to elevate.
Having a sand bed or crushed coral will help your tank maintain or buffer the proper pH of around 8.3 that marine fish require. Pepples do nothing to maintain pH. Crushed coral is ok, but it traps debris and caused nitrates to elevate. A specialized reef sand is better but you can't vacuum a sand bed so you need critters to do that - like hermit crabs, star fish, urhcins ..but if you have high levels of copper in the tank, you can't keep inverts as it is deadly to them.
So to rid your tank of copper get some Poly filters - the ones made by Poly Bio Marine - and put them in the chamber of your wet/dry. Running carbon by itself will not get rid of copper. Poly filters will over time remove any copper that you have put in the tank - if it was a chelated copper. Unfortunately, copper is a heavy metal. It will be absorbed into the rock and silicone seals of your tank. The poly filters will turn blue - showing that it is absorbing copper. You can get Poly filters at many of the on line pet supply stores -
HTH
Susan

 

[kmoore88]

Thanks Susan, I have the Poly filters you suggest already in place. What are your thoughts on my previous question concerning ICH/ICH-like treatmnet for a FOWLR set-up?

 

[mr . salty]

Ich outbreaks are pretty much unavoidable,but there are a few things that you can do to lessen the chanses.A UV is a good investment,I won't get into details about them,Use the search(there are hundreds of posts).Even if one fish gets a mild case of ich,it will not spread to the rest of the tank. Only buy from a GOOD and TRUSTED fish store.My store quarenteens any fish I want to buy for a couple weeks If I want him to.Stress is the #1 cause of ich,So keeping the tank properly stocked,Not overstocked,and introducing compatible fish will greatly increase your chances of sucsess.
[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: MR . SALTY ]

 

[slk3599]

K..
Mr Salty is absolutely correct. The first battle against ich is to make sure the fish you are buying are healthy. Don't buy them if they just arrived at the store..if you want a certain fish, any good lsf will hold if for you a week or two.
I alway quarantine new fish. A small 20g tank, heater, and cheap Penguin bio wheel filter will do the trick. You don't need lights, or even substrate. I broke a ceramic plant pot in half to give the fish shelter. You don't need to keep the q-tank running. Put the biowheel roller in the sump section of your wet/dry. By doing this you will establish good bacteria on the wheel so that when you set up the q-tank, your all set with good bacteria. A 20g q-tank like this will cost you about $60.00/max. - a good investment considering what you are going through now and one expensive fish can cost alot more than $60.00
I have never had ich (knock on wood)so I have never needed to by a UV filter. But if you do research and decide to get one, I'm sure it will be worth the investment. Be careful though,from what I've read they can be tricky to get to work properly.
A final note here..I have always set up each tank with a pretty good idea of what fish I want. I've done the research on the fish. Fish compatability is a real issue to consider if you want to keep your tank fish ich free. Any type of stress can bring the condition on. For example, the first fish alot of people buy are tangs but they should always be the last fish you put in a tank because they are aggresive towards any newcomers. Battles erupt as other fish are added and the next thing you know ich.
So consider what fish you want, add the least agressive first and the most aggresive last. A beware of over crowding - it brings on stress and disease.
It sounds like you still have fish in your main tank, if you can spare the money, set up a q-tank, put the fish in there and let your main tank go fallow for at least 21 days-don't add any fish. This will hopefully break the ich cycle. Before you put your fish back in the main tank, do a water change. Oh by the way, throw some flake food in the main tank once every other day to keep the biological filter going.
Change the poly filters as they become used up (follow the directions on the bag).
Sorry this is so long, but I hope it helps you on your way to a beautiful saltwater tank.