Fish are dying :(---Please help

[esnapz]

Hello all,
I am having a huge problem with my tank and I dont know what to do. Here's my tank info..
I have a 55gal tall saltwater tank with a fluval 404, 1 air pump, 1air hose, heater, thermometer and roughly 60lbs of live rock with crushed coral at the bottom. My tank has been up and running for the past 3yrs now with 5 fish (damsels and clowns) 3mexican turbo snails (though I think they are all dead), 5-10 hermit crabs, 3 nassarus snails and a few more regular snails appx 8-12 (and dozens of super small snails).
I have probably done at most 3-4 half water changes and about 5 10% water changes occasionally topping of the tank with fresh water throughout the past 3yrs and up until a month ago my fish have been fine.
About a month ago I noticed 1 damsel acting funny so I did a 10% water change. However the damsel still died soon after. About 3 weeks after (which is 1 week ago) all my fish started acting funny and I noticed the salt was high so I added about 3 gallons of fresh water. Last night my husband and I noticed the fish breathing very hard and swimming low so we cleaned and rinsed out the filter in hopes to buy the fish some time until we were able to purchase new refills for the filter. However this morning 2 more fish were dead and the other 2 arent looking to great either.
We rushed out to the store, spoke to a rep at *****, made some purchases and are now trying to help the tank.
We have strip test and the testing kit with tubes. We have perfomed both test results are
Ammonia = 0ppm
NO2 = 0ppm
NO3 = 20ppm
PH = 8.8
Salt = 1.022 (I have 3 different hydrometers with all different readings but 2 read appx 1.20-1.23)
I am currently waiting for the tank to cycle being that I've just refilled the filter but as I said most of my fish are dead however I dont want my live rock to be damaged. What can I do to get my tank fish ready again?

 

[cjworkman]

you water is too basic.... PH 8.8
it shouldl be 8.2-8.4...
you have not been adding buffer to water you add to your tank...
you must buffer a saltwater tank to keep the alk/calcium levels correct.
buffer also keeps the PH in check... products like Kalkwasser or 2 part solutions like C balance work to do this.
by adding water without buffer you were making the problem worse.
Mixed saltwater has buffers in it w/ calcium.. but if you are rarely doing water changes.. then they are getting depleted.
I suggest you get a 2 part system like 2 little fishes C balance or Bi-Ionic 1 part Alk / 1 part calcium. I use it about twice a week along with regular water changes to maintain good water conditions.
start bringing the PH down asap... but do it slowly..
low Alk is also what killed your snails btw... inverts are much less intolerant of PH / Alk problems than fish.. so if you have snails/shrimp dying, you'll know there's a problem before it gets to your fish.

 

[esnapz]

What would be the best way to bring the ph down? Just add the ph down solution straight into the tank or dilute it in say 2 gallons of water then add to tank?

 

[cjworkman]

You'll eventually want a 2 part liquid buffer/calcium system... look up 2 little fishies C balance...
but for now.. go to the big pet store.. and get Kent Marine Super Buffer.. it comes in a small round container and is white powder.
Follow the directions on it.. I believe you dissolve about 1 teaspoon in a cup of fresh water for every 25 gallons I think.... then add it to the tank.
also get an Alkalinity test.. do the super buffer every 24 hours until your Alk tests in normal range...
then order a 2 part system and use it at least twice a week to maintain.

 

[smokingreefer]

Originally Posted by esnapz
http:///forum/post/2704041
What would be the best way to bring the ph down? Just add the ph down solution straight into the tank or dilute it in say 2 gallons of water then add to tank?
bring it down with water changes. don't use ph down. test the ph of the new water and gradually get it down to where it should be.

 

[cmaxwell39]

Test strips are very inaccurate. They are better than nothing, but you should really invest in some good liquid test kits. You should be testing at least pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. If you are running a fowlr (fish only with live rock) then that should be all you need to test.
Your pH is on the high side as has already been stated. I do not believe it is from not buffering, as pure water will have a pH of 7.0 so that should tend to bring the pH down. I am not sure if that is what is killing your fish. Your salinity could come up a little bit as well. For inverts (snails, crabs, etc.) a SG of 1.024-1.026 is recommended.
I would recommend getting better test kits and testing again. The numbers you have posted are not out of whack for a fowlr tank, hwever the results you got from the strips may not be accurate. Also, have there been any new additions to the tank lately, what is the water temperature in the tank, is it possible that any chemicals could have accidently gotten into the tank (hands in tank that weren't rinsed real well, air fresheners sprayed close to the tank, ect.)? All of these could be possible causes for the death of your fish.

 

[cjworkman]

smokingreef is correct..
the best way is with water changes.. but if your fish are already struggling... you may not have time to mix new water and do a change.. which you will need to do a few over the next 2 weeks or so.
if you need immediate help.. start with the super buffer.

 

[cmaxwell39]

Don't use a buffer to try to bring your pH down. Buffers are designed to raise the alkalinty and will therefore raise your pH. You will not get the results you want by adding a buffer I don't believe. As has been suggested, get ready to do some water changes.

 

[cjworkman]

Cmax,
8.8 is as basic as pH tests get..
it is also the only thing mentioned that would affect fish that way.
fish are pretty tolerant of SG, nitrate and other things...
btw.. my tank is 1.022 SG and everyone is happy.. i found 1.025 to kill inverts a lot.. because at 80 degrees.. 1.022 really converts to 1.025 since a refractometer works on water at room temprature... (unless you have one with an auto temp converter)
your comment about buffer is also incorrect...
buffering capacity is exactly what regulates PH. her alkalinity is too low.

 

[prime311]

Originally Posted by cmaxwell39
http:///forum/post/2704049
Test strips are very inaccurate. They are better than nothing, but you should really invest in some good liquid test kits. You should be testing at least pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. If you are running a fowlr (fish only with live rock) then that should be all you need to test.
Your pH is on the high side as has already been stated. I do not believe it is from not buffering, as pure water will have a pH of 7.0 so that should tend to bring the pH down. I am not sure if that is what is killing your fish. Your salinity could come up a little bit as well. For inverts (snails, crabs, etc.) a SG of 1.024-1.026 is recommended.
I would recommend getting better test kits and testing again. The numbers you have posted are not out of whack for a fowlr tank, hwever the results you got from the strips may not be accurate. Also, have there been any new additions to the tank lately, what is the water temperature in the tank, is it possible that any chemicals could have accidently gotten into the tank (hands in tank that weren't rinsed real well, air fresheners sprayed close to the tank, ect.)? All of these could be possible causes for the death of your fish.
+1

Even if the tests were accurate, I doubt not buffering your tank would cause this sort of issue. Its impossible to say if your tank needs to be buffered unless you test for Magnesium, Calcium, and Alkalinity. Blindly buffering your tank without knowledge of these numbers is just as dangerous if not more so then not buffering it at all.

 

[esnapz]

Thank you all for your help and advice, to answer some questions asked....No newbies added to the tank within the past year, no hands or chemicals able to affect the water. I did do a liquid test (What I call tube test) at the same time as the strip test. Results are pretty much identical. I have not done any buffering or testing associated with buffering..mainly because I didnt know of this test however it is too late..all fish are dead but we will still maintain tank to keep $600 worth of rocks alive and eventually add fish again.
2 key things I forgot to mention was...
The temp in my tank widely fluctuates between 74 and 90..this is a main problem for me. I actually have to unplug my heater on a weekly basis due to high water temps. Even with the heater off for days at a time temp will still read 85 or more. I dont know why.
The other thing I failed to mention is that my fresh water used is always tap..not RO..just local jersey tap water which may already have a high ph. However this is the same water I've used in my tank for the past 3yrs and it never caused a problem before this one.

 

[prime311]

Well as ck said, high pH could be a sign of low Alk. I don't see how this could suddenly kill all your fish and inverts as it would be a gradual process though. I suspect contaminants or some other issue, perhaps not enough oxygen in the water if your fish were breathing heavily. Still, you should test Alk, Calcium, and Mag and maintain those if they are low.
The temp fluctuations is a major problem. You should check your temp twice daily and plug-in or unplug your heater as needed, or invest in a temperature controller. If you have problems with high temperatures, it could be related to the heat being output from equipment in your water, like pumps and powerheads, or your lighting. You may need to get a chiller to fix this.
The tap water could be a problem, if it suddenly contained additional levels of copper(bad for inverts) or other harmful metals. There was a lot of flooding in my area this summer, which I know had some effect on the tap water. Tap is unreliable, hence the reason for going RO/DI. Not to say this was the problem, but its certainly a potential problem.

 

[cmaxwell39]

The temp fluctuations could be what happened to your fish and inverts. As far as your temperature flucutations, a couple of questions.
First, are you running glass tops on the tank? If you are I would suggest taking them off. This will allow more water to evaporate causing you to have to top off more often, but that evaporation will have a cooling affect on the tank.
Secondly, are you running air conditioner in the house? If you are is the temp in the house pretty steady or does it get really warm sometimes? This also could be affecting tank temp.
Finally, it sounds like your heater may have gone bad. It may be sticking on sometimes causing your water to overheat. I am not sure that this is it since you said the water gets warm even when the heater is unplugged, but you may want to investigate a new heater.

 

[esnapz]

Prime... I do check my temp often..usually more than twice a day. I am contantly plugging and unplugging the heater to help steady my tanks temp. I have just changed the heater to a smaller one that is temperature controlled in hopes to correct this problem. As for not enough air..I have two air strips in my tank flowing bubbles through the tank..is that not enough? As I said, I always used tap but u make a great point on the conditions of tap water changing, I'll be sure to test the Alk, Cal and Mag as suggested.
Cmax...I doubt the temp killed my fish only because this problem has been happening for the past 6 or so months but you never know.
Yes I do have a glass top which I often kept open (not off) to help controll the temp. I was afraid taking the top off may allow my fish to jump out but now theres just rocks and inverts so I guess I can do that. I'm not sure if it was the heater, its a 300watt all glass aquarium heater or other items like powerheads that affects my temp but as i said my husband just changed it so I hope this works. And lastly I didnt have any ac running near the tank this year..I did have one last yr though but also had the same problem.

 

[natclanwy]

Air bubbles are pretty much worthless for adding air to a tank in fact they add very little oxygen plus they make salt creep a horrible problem. Oxygen exchange occurs at the surface of your tank and is best accomplished by using powerheads to circulate the water and aggitate the surface. The more aggitation at the surface the better the oxygen/CO2 exchange.
If removing the top helps regulate the temperature than you can get some eggcrate to cover the top of your tank to keep the fish from jumping while still allowing oxygen exchange and evaporation.

 

[tbcseod]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2704235
If removing the top helps regulate the temperature than you can get some eggcrate to cover the top of your tank to keep the fish from jumping while still allowing oxygen exchange and evaporation.
+1 - I have had to do this with two of my tanks

 

[prime311]

What Natclan said. Air strips are for freshwater tanks. Surface agitation and protein skimmers provide oxygenation for salt water.

 

[natclanwy]

Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2704320
What Natclan said. Air strips are for freshwater tanks. Surface agitation and protein skimmers provide oxygenation for salt water.
Air strips are just as ineffective in a fresh water tank.

 

[prime311]

I always thought air strips did more in freshwater due to the lack of salt. I was always told to use one anyway considering you aren't likely to have powerheads or other equipment like that in a fw tank. A little filter barely adds any agitation.

 

[xtreeme]

Not sure if this is true. One a protein skimmer makes nice air, the venturi driven skimmer is just air bubles like a buble strip/buble curtain. Another thing, the bubles pop on surface makes ton of agitation -THIS is what the salt creep from. Only down side I hear about bubles is salt creep. Which why skimmer is good for oxygen less creep. Disolved oxygen is what you need.
The surface does the exchange. That is nitrogen gas released. You need surface movement however I wouldnt think that means bubles dont work at all.
Personally for more air I would either use a venturi skimmer or add power head to move top water.