Fish are dying

[jbrit82]

I have a 120 gal tank with a 125 gal wet dry pump, protein skimmer, UV detoxify-er. Also to pumps for circulation inside the tack. I have had my tank set up for 2 1/2 months. It has fully cycled. After fully cycling I have had 4 tangs, 2 lion fish, blue spotted rabbitfish, clown fish, grouper and a couple other die. My ammonia has never gone over .25 but my Nitrite spike again and my fish developed ich. I treated for Ich for 5 weeks and have been adding TLC bacteria to the tack. I got all the levels back to 0 and bought another lionfish, grouper and dog faced puffer. They died two days later. My ammonia went back to .25 and nitrite spiked again. I have no Idea what I'm doing wrong !!!!!
Can the Ich or any other parasites live in the live rock even after treatment. I have two fish that have lived through everything and they are a green bird nose wrasse and a squirrel fish. I treated the Ich with "Kill Ich". After the 4th week of treating I did a 30% water change and did not treat for 3 days then began treating again for a week. The last couple of fish that died did not have signs of Ich nor do I believe that Ich will kill a fish in two days. The squirrel fish and wrasse never had any white spots but did scratch.
I also have two anemones. My Ph stays around 83 and temp is 76. During Ich treatment I raised it to 80 then back to 76 with salinity around 1.023. I also add three fish at a time. Is this bad? The two fish that lived were bought at a separate store that I found in NJ. There prices were 3x more then other stores but there fished survived. The fish that I have bought from 4 local store have all died. Is there something that one store has different then others. Is there an online store that is good for ordering fish.
Could I get rid of the live rock and get fake Corral arrangement for a fish only tank?
I didnt know what else to do other then empty the tank and start over trying to save the last two fish. What should I do????

 

[gemmy]

The best thing to do would be to set up a separate tank to quarantine the fish that you do have and let the display tank sit fallow for 6 weeks. Ich has stages and the only way (IMO) to rid the system is to remove its host (fish) so it can die in the tank. The best way to prevent ich is QT all new arrivals. There is some great info about ich and disease treatment in the disease section of the forum.

 

[rickross23]

Your tank was extremely overstocked thats what you did...4 tangs can NEVER live in a 120g happily.

 

[flower]

Welcome to the site...sorry about all the problems you are having.
AFTER you listen to Gemmy and let the display tank sit with no fish for 6 weeks to be rid of ich....Healthy fish can fight off ich...but new arrivals are stressed and succomb to the ich, giving it more larva to attack the healthy ones that could handle it origainally...then by sheer numbers the ich finally kills even the healthy ones..... So no new fish can be added until the ich is actually cleared from the tank.
Where you went wrong:
You added too many fish too soon. Only one fish every three or four weeks, a quarantine tank set up will help you space out the fish you add at any one time. It will allow you time to find out if your fish is sick before it contaminates and killls all the others. Now your display has to sit empty for 6 weeks.
Everytime you add another critter the ammonia from that critters waste is added to the bioload...there has to be enough good bacteria to break it down fast enough, and nitrite as well, before it harms the fish...by adding too many at once the good bacteria couldn't keep up, and so you noticed the spike in ammonia and nitrites which are deadly to fish. By allowing time to pass between adding fish, you allow the good bacteria in the tank to adjust.
Your tank is always cycling, the first cycle has to run it's course before you add that first fish, but you can't stock your tank all at once....just like the first cycle, the tank has to have time to rebuild more good bacteria with each new critter.
So take a deep breath...get a hospital tank set up for the sick fish, and treat them for ich (NOT IN THE DISPLY) ... let the display go empty...Patients is the key to success.
Hope this helps you understand things a little better..don't give up, we all make mistakes.

 

[acrylic51]

Curious as to what tangs you have in the 120.....

 

[rickross23]

He probably has 4 Vlamingiis hahah.

 

[jbrit82]

I had a Naso, Blue, Yellow Eyed and a Blonde Tang.

 

[jbrit82]

I asked several LFS about a quarantine tank and they told me that they are not necessary. This is where i went wrong. I will get a quarintine tank and follow your directions and see how it goes.
What do you think about copper to help kill ich?
Being an all fish tank I took out about 70lbs of live rock last night and made a couple of caves for the fish with the other 30lbs. I wanted to get some fake corral arrangments for the tank. Would this be safe and could good bacteria in the bio balls and 30lb of live rock be enough to support the tank if I follow the 1 fish per 4 weeks.
How many fish could I add to a 120g tank? I went from a 55g to the 120g. I figured as soon as I can keep the 120g steady and keep fish alive I would go to a 300g. This is an addictive and expesive hobby. LOL.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrit82 http:///t/391330/fish-are-dying#post_3470063
I asked several LFS about a quarantine tank and they told me that they are not necessary. This is where i went wrong. I will get a quarintine tank and follow your directions and see how it goes.
What do you think about copper to help kill ich?
Being an all fish tank I took out about 70lbs of live rock last night and made a couple of caves for the fish with the other 30lbs. I wanted to get some fake corral arrangments for the tank. Would this be safe and could good bacteria in the bio balls and 30lb of live rock be enough to support the tank if I follow the 1 fish per 4 weeks.
How many fish could I add to a 120g tank? I went from a 55g to the 120g. I figured as soon as I can keep the 120g steady and keep fish alive I would go to a 300g. This is an addictive and expesive hobby. LOL.
The larger the tank the easier it is to keep. The opposite of what folks think. Put your fish in a hospital tank...get a refractometer (very important..do NOT use a hydrometer) You will have to do a procedure called hypo, it is explained in the disease section of the forum. It is the best way to get rid of ICH and be sure to leave your display tank empty for 6 weeks.
Yes it is indeed an expensive and addicting hobby...Welcome to our insanity!
Oh and to answer your question....it is not a matter of how many fish will fit, but rather what kind of fish do you want to keep. Figure out the one fish you really like and want, and build your stock list around that, everything you add to the tank must get along with what you add later. So choose wisely.

 

[rickross23]

your tanks overstocked NOW. get the 300g and then think of adding new fish.

 

[jbrit82]

All fish are dead except my bird nose wrasse and squirrel fish. I do not believe I will get another tang.
The fish I would like to have in my tank our a Lion Fish, Dog Face Puffer and the two I have.
I want to try the Hyposalinity but can I do it in the main tank with the little live rock that I have. The LR is just there for the bacteria. I plan on putting fake coral in. I only have the two fish that have survived everything but dont know what the Hypo would do to the LR.

 

[rickross23]

Those are good fish, but they require a tank larger than yours. That 300g you want is a great tank for those fish and you COULD even add more fish to the 300. I would setup a QT since you don't have.to does the 120g as much and it'd cheaper than to buy the treatments.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrit82 http:///t/391330/fish-are-dying#post_3470080
All fish are dead except my bird nose wrasse and squirrel fish. I do not believe I will get another tang.
The fish I would like to have in my tank our a Lion Fish, Dog Face Puffer and the two I have.
I want to try the Hyposalinity but can I do it in the main tank with the little live rock that I have. The LR is just there for the bacteria. I plan on putting fake coral in. I only have the two fish that have survived everything but dont know what the Hypo would do to the LR.
Remove the LR to a bucket of saltwater.

 

[alpha]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickross23 http:///t/391330/fish-are-dying#post_3470071
your tanks overstocked NOW. get the 300g and then think of adding new fish.
Wrasse, Squirrel Fish, Dog Face Puffer and a Lion Fish is overstocked for a 120??
If its a 6FT long tang which based upon assumption, I don't think that its OVERstocked. Its not like he has a 8" Achilles Tang in the tank.
I do agree with adding in the QT Tank. It is helpful. I keep a 10Gal QT next to my sump to house stuff for a few weeks.
The other thing I would also recommend... If your nitrite is high why are u removing Live rock? IMO the more live rock you have, the better filtration you have to support those fish. Consider putting it back in.. ICK doesn't affect live rock.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha http:///t/391330/fish-are-dying#post_3471050
Wrasse, Squirrel Fish, Dog Face Puffer and a Lion Fish is overstocked for a 120??
If its a 6FT long tang which based upon assumption, I don't think that its OVERstocked. Its not like he has a 8" Achilles Tang in the tank.
I do agree with adding in the QT Tank. It is helpful. I keep a 10Gal QT next to my sump to house stuff for a few weeks.
The other thing I would also recommend... If your nitrite is high why are u removing Live rock? IMO the more live rock you have, the better filtration you have to support those fish. Consider putting it back in.. ICK doesn't affect live rock.
jbrit is planning on doing Hypo in the DT (I don't think he should...a seperate hospital tank is better) ) and wanted to remove the LR while he does so. So I told him to put the rock in a bucket for the duration.

 

[acrylic51]

If he does hypo in the DT......He will have a "spike" in his parameters.....Meaning some die off of bacteria in the LR he does have, so another issue he will have to combat IMO......

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/391330/fish-are-dying#post_3471072
If he does hypo in the DT......He will have a "spike" in his parameters.....Meaning some die off of bacteria in the LR he does have, so another issue he will have to combat IMO......
I agree...but if he doesn't have a seperate tank he can remove the LR to a bucket couldn't he? Oh what am I saying...the sand is affected too and with anemones in the tank ...he can't do hypo on inverts especially anemones..
Doing hypo in the dispaly is not doable. Remove the fish and treat them, and leave the display clear of fish for 6 to 8 weeks.

 

[acrylic51]

Agree the anemones should come out of the tank, I see the CUC as expendable though.......But correct everything living would be affected from doing hypo in the DT......

 

[flower]

Having given you the most sound advice, now I am going to tell you a story.
I had ich in my reef tank, and I had no quarantine or hospital tank large enough for all of my fish. The reef safe meds were not working, and in fact made my inverts and coral look sick.
So I turned up the tamp to 82 (my Hippo tang likes the warm and it was the most affected) I got a couple of cleaner shrimp to help pick off the parasites on the fish. I used fresh garlic juice and soaked the fish food in it and I got the seaweed with garlic to feed the fish since I read that garlic would help with immunity. I stopped adding any new fish since new fish would be stressed and the ich would go into outbreak mode. I did add corals and inverts without worry.
Keeping my surviving fish alive and as healthy as possible was my goal. The upped immunity kept them from succumibing to the parasite. A few years go by and no fish die off...I had to move. Nothing is more stressful, and I expected the worse...to my amazement not one spot appeared, not even on the Hippo tang, my parasite magnet. My tank somehow was clear of the ich parasite.
My best GUESS is that without the fish being weak to give in to the parasite, it died off without a host. Now mind you...that is a GUESS, I know I had ich, I know it killed my fish. I know the others as long as they were happy and healthy could fight it off.
I learned the valuable lesson of QTs and their use. adding new fish is worry free that way. The point of my story is to tell you that your surviving fish CAN live with the parasite, but you can't add new fish because they will be stressed and will be overcome with it, and by sheer numbers it will give it a chance to kill the remaining fish that survived. Instead of 8 weeks to be rid of it in the tank...it takes a year or more.