Fish in QT,should I raise temp in main tank?

the gman

New Member
I am battling a case of black ich, I set up a 20 QT and gave my fish a Formalin bath before I put them in there. I understand I have two more baths to go and then I am going to start a Hypo treatment. By the time the 3rd bath is finished I will have my mailordered refractometer.
My question is about my main tank, should I raise the temperature to speed the cycle of black ick? Right now it is between 75 and 78. The only things in my tank are a porcelin crap and a crop of Caulerpa. If I should raise the temp, what can I go to with the situation I have.
I have been told that black ich has about the same life cycle (30 - 40 days) as regular ick. Is that the general consensus?
thanks
Glenn
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
No need to turn the temp up in the tank. Why are you doing hypo? It won't cure black ich. Just the formalin bathes are needed.
 

the gman

New Member
I have 4 fish Huma Trigger, Harlequin Bass, Tomato Clown and the Yellow Tang. The Tang is the only one showing the black ick but the other 3 are scratching also. Can the black ick be causing the scratching on the Huma and Bass but not showing symptoms? I did a Formalin bath on the Tang about 4 days ago just for some quick relief while I bought the rest of the equipment for the QT. It dropped the number way down but in waiting for the 20 gal QT's salt to dissolve and age they came back pretty heavy. I didn't want to fill the QT with main tank water.
The other problem that showed up at the same time is on the Clown and the Tang only. At first I thought it was a raised scale on the Clown but there are 3 or 4 clumps of stuff that looked about 1/16" wide by not quite 1/8" long hunk of skin. What are these?
I just looked at it this way, if I have to wait the 35 days for the ick to run its course in the main tank that I might as well try the Hypo treatment and be double sure. Am I wrong on this?

your advice is greatly appreciated,
Glenn
And now for something completly different...
I want to move up to a 120 type tank.
What would be better, a 120 gallon that is 48x24x24 with more depth and thickness
Or a 125 gallon that is 72x18x22 with more length?
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member

Originally posted by the Gman
I have 4 fish Huma Trigger, Harlequin Bass, Tomato Clown and the Yellow Tang. The Tang is the only one showing the black ick but the other 3 are scratching also. Can the black ick be causing the scratching on the Huma and Bass but not showing symptoms?
Definitely. Black ich commonly show up on yellow tangs not because the tang is prone to it, but, rather, because the BLACK ich can easily be seen on a solid light colored fish as opposed to a fish with various colors or even darker colors. Get a magnifying glass out and give all your fish the once over to see if you can detect black ick. If you are not seeing white ich, odds are that it is the black, thus treat accordingly. Hypo won't hurt, that's for sure.
I did a Formalin bath on the Tang about 4 days ago just for some quick relief while I bought the rest of the equipment for the QT.
Ok, the treatment for black ich is formalin bathe....take a look at the FAQ thread for the post on formalin bathes and follow it exactly. Also take a look at the info in that thread on QT. Particularly how to setup. Better to use tank water, I think, in a QT that you are trying to set up fast.
I didn't want to fill the QT with main tank water.
Why not? Is there something wrong with the water in the display?
The other problem that showed up at the same time is on the Clown and the Tang only. At first I thought it was a raised scale on the Clown but there are 3 or 4 clumps of stuff that looked about 1/16" wide by not quite 1/8" long hunk of skin. What are these?
Could it be wounds from the parasite? Can you get a pic up of the problem areas?
And now for something completely different...
I want to move up to a 120 type tank.
What would be better, a 120 gallon that is 48x24x24 with more depth and thickness
Or a 125 gallon that is 72x18x22 with more length?
This would definitely be a matter of personal preference. Let what you are going to do with that tank guide you in your decision. For instance, if you plan to have a reef tank, you may want to go with depth and width. However, if you are going to have a schooling tank with hard swimmers, you will want length. Up to you.
 

the gman

New Member
Since the tang has the dots so predominate, I have an instant visual reference. They are uniform over him body.
I definately don't see the black ick on the Huma and he has a lot of light colored areas, but he is scratching also. The Bass has a lot of light areas also and with the uniformity of the placing on the Tang, I would think I would see them on the Bass also, but I don't.
AFA using the main tank water, wouldn't that keep introducing the parasites that are swimming at the moment into the QT and ultimately back on the fish? The way I see it is that the Formalin kills the adults attached to the fish and may miss some juveniles, otherwise 1 treatment would do. Putting him back into clean QT water would prevent re-infestation. The remedy to clean the main tank is for 35 days in the absence of fish, that to me means there are still viable parasites in the water on say day 25, so why would you want to keep using any main tank water to reintoduce them back on the fish when the Formalin treatment is only 5 days long? (3 dips - 1 day apart). Formalin works instantly so to speak and doesn't build up some protective layer. To me, any reintroduction of parasites a couple days after the bath would start the whole cycle again, wouldn't it? I have a 10 gallon to mix fresh QT water in.
I read the faq on the Formalin bath, I only gave him a relief bath 4 days ago as a helper treatment. As of today they are in the QT and I gave them all the bath as I transfered them there. I will follow the schedule on all 4 fish now that the QT is setup. I had the water at the same temp and the salinity was the same using a floating meter.
One thing I did do though was to use the same container and Formalin batch for each fish, one right after the other. I didn't make up a new batch for each fish. Do you think that matters? I was going to make a new batch for each bath day though.
The other problem is not wounds from the parasite because the Tang has only 2 of these tags but had dozens on black ick sites before the first bath. That to me would mean he should have dozens of tags. I will try to get a pic of the tag in question. I just have not mastered my digital camera to take closeup fish pics yet.
At any rate, if the refractometer gets here after the Formalin baths are over and the scratching and spots went away maybe I won't hypo. I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
The question about tank shape was based on the fact that a 6' tank would give each fish more "territory" to roam in and more space to distance themselves from other fish. Myself, I am more into fish than reefs. I want a larger home for when my Imperator grows up. He's just a little tike now in a 29 gallon (ick free, thank heavens!)
thanks again for all your time spent helping me and all the others,
Glenn
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member

Originally posted by the Gman
AFA using the main tank water, wouldn't that keep introducing the parasites that are swimming at the moment into the QT and ultimately back on the fish? The way I see it is that the Formalin kills the adults attached to the fish and may miss some juveniles, otherwise 1 treatment would do. Putting him back into clean QT water would prevent re-infestation.

Black ich is not the same as white spot or the ich that we commonly know, thus you can't think of it in the same manner. Black ich has a life cycle of approx 10 days. While fish can be infected via free-swimming parasite contact with fish, most infection occurs fish to fish. If you follow the 3-5 day procedure, every other day, you will beat out that 10 day life cycle even if parasite in the water can infect the fish. In any case, my recommendation to use display water was because you don't have an established QT. Maintaining fish, especially several fish, in an uncycled QT could end up to be very stressful for fish. Thus, you have to weigh the 2 issues [quality aged cycled water that may have parasites with uncycled water that has no parasites]. In any case, you have already gone with the new water, so go with it. Just do not let the QT cycle.
Originally posted by the Gman
The remedy to clean the main tank is for 35 days in the absence of fish, that to me means there are still viable parasites in the water on say day 25, so why would you want to keep using any main tank water to reintroduce them back on the fish when the Formalin treatment is only 5 days long? (3 dips - 1 day apart).

The life cycle of black ich is around 10days, not a month. Thus in 15 days, for safe measure, your tank is clear. Again, the primary means of transmission is fish to fish, unlike white ich.
Originally posted by the Gman

I read the faq on the Formalin bath, I only gave him a relief bath 4 days ago as a helper treatment. As of today they are in the QT and I gave them all the bath as I transferred them there. I will follow the schedule on all 4 fish now that the QT is setup. I had the water at the same temp and the salinity was the same using a floating meter. .
One thing I did do though was to use the same container and Formalin batch for each fish, one right after the other. I didn't make up a new batch for each fish. Do you think that matters? I was going to make a new batch for each bath day though.

Better to use fresh bathe water for each fish.
Originally posted by the Gman

At any rate, if the refractometer gets here after the Formalin baths are over and the scratching and spots went away maybe I won't hypo. I'll cross that bridge when I get there. .

If you want to begin hypo you can with a glass hydrometer, then adjust the water, if necessary, once you get the refract. Begin counting hypo days when you are sure that your salinity is at 14ppt / 1.009sg.
Originally posted by the Gman
The question about tank shape was based on the fact that a 6' tank would give each fish more "territory" to roam in and more space to distance themselves from other fish. Myself, I am more into fish than reefs. I want a larger home for when my Imperator grows up. He's just a little tike now in a 29 gallon (ick free, thank heavens!)


Then you've made the right choice! Sounds like you are on the right track with what you are doing. You may want to do formalin dips on all fish.
 

the gman

New Member
Before I found this message board, I was on one that only had a small number of posts. They did suggest the Formalin for black spot but everybody there said the lifespan was the same as white ick. I now stand corrected. That changes my whole outlook on this outbreak.
First off, today is going to be Formalin bath #2 day. The spots on the Tang are almost all gone and the tank mates are looking good also. I have a 10 gallon also that I had SW made up in at the right temp so I will stay with this to use it up. I do understand what you said about the QT and using tank water so if I get a fish again (and the main tank is clean) I will definately do water changes with main tank water.
Second, the refractometer came today. DrF&S rock! The new plan of attack is this. Finish the Formalin treatment just as it is. I will make up a fresh batch for each fish since you mentioned it. Monitor the fish to see if scratching bout is over. Since the black ick is gone from the main tank in 15 days, if the fish don't show signs of the need for hypo I am not going to do it. The length of time between the Formalin bath and the 15 should prove the fish are clean or not. I figure that if the Formalin does the job, it would be better to get the fish back in the main tank sooner instead of later.
Third, after this is over I am going to leave my QT set up, cycle it and maybe get a damsel to keep it cycled.
I have been researching stand designs and I am definately going with the 6' 125 gallon for my main tank down the road on a stand that I made. My 55 is UGF & CC but the 125 will be full on LS & LR.
With all of this knowledge you are imparting on me, I feel very confident I can lick this problem and prevent it from happening again. I am so grateful for you help and guidance.
Glenn
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Sounds like you are on the right track with your plans! :D
Glenn you're new to Saltwaterfish.com and probably haven't caught on to the few things we ask members not to do. Bascially no links to or discussions about other stores, or other BBs. :D ie: "DrF&S rock!" I'm sure you understand, especially since Saltwaterfish.com is also a store.
You won't regret QTing your fish first! And you can and will learn a great deal here so welcome to our community!
 

the gman

New Member
Second bath day and things are looking good.
Sorry about the mention, I abreviated so at least not to sound like a plug.
AFA SWF.com's fish sales go, I am real happy with my Pearlscale Butterfly and Imperator Angel fish, my LFS won't be seeing me any more!
Bad joke time. My LFS's new motto - Buy a fish and get a free case of ick!!!!!!
thanks for everything
Glenn
 
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