GFCI and current rod

mrdc

mrdc

Active Member
Ok, short story is tank crashed a year or so ago and now I am back in the hobby (several months now) and I have ben attempting to do a lot of things differently and now I am on electricity. I never did use GFCI but dif use a current rod which I know wasnt the right thing to do but now I have plans to change that. I don't work with electricity so I have been waiting on my father to come over to change out my outlets but he lives out of town and so I don't know when he will come next. So I have these GFCI shock buster things that plug into regular outlets and was wondering if I could go ahead and use these. I am currently using three outlets and right now I have two shock busters.
Can I go ahead and use these for now and my stray current rod until I change out all my outlets? If so, are there more important outlets I should use them on based on what units are plugged into them? And does it matter where I ground the current rod to?
 
1boatnut

1boatnut

Member
GFI outlets are usually used in bathrooms,kitchens & outside.
They are there so you don't get a shock. Not needed to use for plugging stuff in for a fish tank.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/3261586
GFI outlets are usually used in bathrooms,kitchens & outside.
They are there so you don't get a shock. Not needed to use for plugging stuff in for a fish tank.

To answer OP question YES anything is better protection than nothing.
1boatnut:
Are you serious???

The reason you have GFCI outlets in the kitchen and bathroom is to protest from shock because there is WATER near electricity. The reason you NEED GFCI outlets on the stuff you plug into the fish tank is because you have WATER near electricity.
Fish tanks flood, they have salt creep, they have electric stuff right in the tank of water. A GFCI outlet just saved my fish from death because I had a heater break right in the tank and SHOCK everything. It is a good safety measure, those outlets could save your tank and your life.
 
scsinet

scsinet

Active Member
The shockbuster GFI is just as good as the built in receptacle or breakers, so you are fine in using those.
It's worth reiterating flower's position that GFIs are just as critical for aquarium circuits as in kitchens, bathrooms, etc.
The reason GFIs are mandated by code for kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, garages, and outside is because of the increased risk of ground fault shocks occuring due to the presence of moisture and grounded surfaces (concrete floors, earth, etc).
In the case of our tanks, you have three big risk factors: highly conductive seawater, submerged electrical equipment, and grounded surfaces all around the tank (lighting hoods, pump housings, etc). Arguably, GFI protection is even MORE important for saltwater tanks than in the areas around a home where they are mandated.
You cannot rely on a circuit breaker to trip in the event that a ground fault flows through your body or your aquarium water. Circuit breakers are designed to protect property where as GFIs are designed to protect life. Anyone who runs a tank without a GFI is playing a dangerous game.
 
mrdc

mrdc

Active Member
Thanks for your replies. I thought GFIs were recommended especially if you use a grounding probe (I can't remember exactly why). I will use my shockbusters for now and look for somewhere to screw down the grounding probe.
Let me pose one more thing that I tried to do last night but didn't word it just right. Let me assume that I am right that you should use GFIs if you are using a grounding probe. Right now I have three ac outlets being used and two shock busters. If I only use two shock busters, should I use the grounding probe? Or should I wait to use the grounding probe when I have GFIs on all the outlets?
 
1boatnut

1boatnut

Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3261635
Circuit breakers are designed to protect property where as GFIs are designed to protect life. Anyone who runs a tank without a GFI is playing a dangerous game.
I agree.
Then I play a dangerous game

I guess if you have wet hands and are playing around with your electric cords & stuff then GFI's would be needed.
Normally I try not to do both
Flower, your telling me a heater broke & tripped the GFI?
I guess I learn something new every day. The purpose of a GFI is to interrupt the ground,which is usually a person,but in answer to the op's question a ground probe & gfi (IMO) are not both needed
 
scsinet

scsinet

Active Member
Looking at the heater scenario for a moment...
If a heater breaks in a tank that is protected by a GFI and the water column is grounded - either by a submerged piece of grounded equipment that exposes the water to the ground or by use of a grounding probe - a GFI will detect current being diverted to ground and cut the circuit.
The beauty of this is that a GFI detects the specific ground fault, whereas a breaker only trips due to overcurrent. A GFI's trip ratio is usually in the range of 40ma (or forty thousanths of an amp). If a GFI were not present, a breaker would require much more. In the case of a 15 amp breaker, it would require at least 15,000ma to trip after several minutes, or even more than that to trip quickly. This is sufficient current to kill all of your livestock and you if you happen to be in the tank at the time. Considering that many times heaters are broken while a hobbyist has their hands in the water rearranging things, it certainly reiterates the necessity of GFIs.
However.... a GFI will not trip unless it detects a current flow to ground. If your water is not grounded via the circumstances I stated above, then what can happen instead is that the water becomes "hot" (read: electrified), but, if circumstances are correct, a breaker nor GFI will trip. Instead, it waits... for a hobbyist who is grounded elsewhere - such as by leaning against a lighting reflector or standing on a grounded surface - sticks their hand in the tank... if you have a GFI, you get a small bite and the power is shut off. If not, your next of kin can read all about what happens next on the local news.
My position has always been that GFIs are 100% required on saltwater, but grounding probes are not. However, grounding probes should NEVER be used on tanks without GFIs. I do not use grounding probes, but I use GFIs.
 
slice

slice

Active Member
I finally installed GFCI outlets last night. I feel a lot better in general, and especially when our 58lb Wavemaker* starts to frolic. I will have a Ground Probe in the tank by month's end.
*Layla, our 7yo female Boxer, who runs, slides and bumps into everything...except the tank...so far...
 
ibanez

ibanez

Member
What is your position on afci SCSInet? We had to start using those in bedrooms just before I changed careers. I wonder if having a dedicated circuit with afci would have any benefits over individual gfci outlets.
 
scsinet

scsinet

Active Member
AFCIs are designed to monitor for the chacteristics of an unintended arc happening within the line. How exactly these devices distinguish between a "bad arc" from a faulty wiring condition and a "good arc" that occurs normally in light switches, timers, motors, etc I have no clue - except that it's not always 100% reliable.
However, the fact remains that the great majority of fires of electrical nature are caused by arcing.
Since 1999, the NEC has mandated that these devices be installed in all bedroom circuits, and now the latest NEC revision mandates them in all residential circuits - with the exception of those that are required to be GFI protected.
To get on my soapbox for a moment, at this time, the effectiveness of these devices is dubious. They are prone to false tripping. I know that UPS systems are NOTORIOUS for nuisance tripping these things, and several investigatations has placed their effectiveness pretty low... sometimes below 50%. I personally believe the NEC jumped the gun in requiring them, especially considering that they are crazy expensive... $50 or so each versus $4 for a conventional single pole circuit breaker. In a normal home with 20 or so branch circuits, that adds up $2000 or more per installation. I'd pay in a second if I thought it would protect my house reliably from a fault... but I don't think they do.
From an aquarium perspective, they MAY provide protection in a splash event... where water gets onto a powerstrip or something like that. However, when water gets on a power strip, it almost always gets into the grounding opening of a receptacle at the same time as a hot opening, which would pop a GFI more or less instantly. Beyond that, anything that really goes on in the tank arcing related are good arcs... timers, heaters, chillers, etc switching on and off. All of these good arcs going on suggests to me that they'd cause nuisance tripping to a degree of making them not worth the slight extra protection they may provide over a GFI.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/3261950
Thanks,now I'm afraid to stick my hand in my tank

Without those outlets you should be. It isn't a joke.
You or anyone reading this...please be safe. Considering all the money spent on tanks and rock and critters…Your very life...The price of a GFCI outlet is a tiny amount of money to protect what we consider priceless.
 
1boatnut

1boatnut

Member
Flower,just a note:
A GFI is not something you just install and forget about.
GFI's can become more sensative to minor variations in current over time and may need to be replaced.
The neighbor found this out the hard way as he was just gone for a weekend and the GFI tripped for no apparent reason,causing him to loose all electrical functions of the tank.
Also please note:
GFI's are not effective in certain circumstances.
They work by measuring the difference between the electrical current going INTO an appliance and the current going OUT of the appliance. This assumes that the person being shocked is grounded. If you were ungrounded and touched the hot and neutral wires at the same time, there would be no drop in current detected, so the GFI would not activate. Then, you would be at the mercy of the fuses or circuit breakers, which may or may not stop the current before its too late!
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member

Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/3261957
Flower,just a note:
A GFI is not something you just install and forget about.
GFI's can become more sensative to minor variations in current over time and may need to be replaced.
The neighbor found this out the hard way as he was just gone for a weekend and the GFI tripped for no apparent reason,causing him to loose all electrical functions of the tank.
Also please note:
GFI's are not effective in certain circumstances.
They work by measuring the difference between the electrical current going INTO an appliance and the current going OUT of the appliance. This assumes that the person being shocked is grounded. If you were ungrounded and touched the hot and neutral wires at the same time, there would be no drop in current detected, so the GFI would not activate. Then, you would be at the mercy of the fuses or circuit breakers, which may or may not stop the current before its too late!

I replace my skimmer when it goes bad, and I replace my toaster when it goes bad…I know that any flux causes the GFCI to trip, I’ve lost power to my tank as well.
I still think it saves lives and critters. There are no guarantees in life, but whenever we can tip the scales in our favor, we should do it. I am not an electrician, but I have had fish tanks all my life. I honestly believe that installing GFCI outlets are the best thing you can do to protect yourself and your fish tank.
 
mrdc

mrdc

Active Member
I had a kitchen GFCI got out for no apparent reason recently. I wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't the outlet I use for toasting my pop tarts!
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by mrdc
http:///forum/post/3261992
I had a kitchen GFCI got out for no apparent reason recently. I wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't the outlet I use for toasting my pop tarts!

Was the outlet bad, or the toaster?
Did it save the pop tart from burning?
 
mrdc

mrdc

Active Member
The outlet just went bad. It's fixed now because the kids were about to attack after 3 days of no pop tarts!!
 
1boatnut

1boatnut

Member
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3261988

I replace my skimmer when it goes bad, and I replace my toaster when it goes bad…I know that any flux causes the GFCI to trip, I’ve lost power to my tank as well.
I still think it saves lives and critters. There are no guarantees in life, but whenever we can tip the scales in our favor, we should do it. I am not an electrician, but I have had fish tanks all my life. I honestly believe that installing GFCI outlets are the best thing you can do to protect yourself and your fish tank.
Flower,I hope you understand my prior post was purely informational.
I undersatnd we may replace things as they go bad,unfortunately sometimes things just go bad without any prior warning,as in my neighbors case.
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3261988
I still think it saves lives and critters.
I don't disagree it can.
Unfortunately in my neighbors case,it did the exact opposite.
 
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