Going to try a LED build. Any advice is appreciated

[cryptics]

I have a 90g reef tank that I was running 2 x 250w MH and 2 x 54w T5 Blue + on. I only have LPS, Zoas/pally's and softies in the tank right now. I do have a GBTA but he hides from most of the light right now. The tank is in my small office in the basement and the lights are retrofitted into the canopy. The light heats the water so much I had to put on a chiller which makes the office into a sauna. That is why I have decided to try my hand at LED's. Plus I have seen BTLDReef's and they look amazing
I ordered the equivalent of one of the 48 led kits from RapidLED on Saturday. I got the :
4x Mean Well ELN-60-48P dimmable driver
24x CREE XP-E Royal Blue 3W LED with 55 degree White Len
24x CREE XP-G R5 Cool White 3W LED with 65 degree White Lens
7 Function Multimeter
AA Battery LED Tester
50x Pre-cut/stripped Wire
8x Wire Connectors/Nuts
4x 3-Prong Power Cord
DDC-01 PWM Controller
I also ordered (2) 8.8 x 12'' drilled and tapped heatsinks from reefledlights. They have space for 42 LED's on each so I can upgrade when needed.
I am planning to attach the 2 fans and the power supplies to the heatsink like they show here. http://reefledlights.com/how-to-diy-led/ (this is only a link to an instructional but if it isn't allowed I apologize and will remove it) I was going to take the top panel off of the canopy and use a hanging kit to allow for better heat distribution. I am thinking about putting two pieces of plywood across the top of the open canopy to attach the hanging kit. I ordered a soldering iron and arctic silver ceramique from Amazon.
How does this look?
Thank you in advance for any help!

 

[cryptics]

My plans is to make 4 strings of 12. 2 on each heatsink (1 white 1 blue). Very basic setup. The only thing I am not that comfortable with is soldering. Going to have a friend help me out with that probably and going to use the AA tester to test the connections as i go.
Once I do set this up should I run these dimmed 50% or so to let the corals acclimate or since I am running 250 MH now can I start at like 75%?

 

[acrylic51]

Honestly do a tad more research on your driver choice. Depending on circumstances those ELN drivers can be a hazard. Search the big build thread on RC Kcress discusses the issue. BLTDreef's may be fine, but over a period of time those drivers can't wreak havoc on home electrical systems and other household appliances.

 

[cryptics]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated#post_3403017
Honestly do a tad more research on your driver choice. Depending on circumstances those ELN drivers can be a hazard. Search the big build thread on RC Kcress discusses the issue. BLTDreef's may be fine, but over a period of time those drivers can't wreak havoc on home electrical systems and other household appliances.
I tried looking that up. I am assuming it is the thread with 7,287 posts The search function says it isn't working so i haven't found the correct post yet. I had read your other post about these and may have misunderstood. I got the impression that the main problem arises with larger strings of LED's on startup (especially after a power outage where all drivers start at the same time). My tank is actually in my office in my house. The drummer from meatloaf used to own this house and this was rehersal place so i have 4 dead runs to this small room. I will have 2 drivers on each run. The only other things on those lines will be pumps and the chiller. With that said reading what i have I going to replace them in the next 4 weeks or so. What do you recommend? Is there any that would work with a reefkeeper?

 

[acrylic51]

The search can be trying at times.... The problem doesn't really arise from larger setups or string per say, but where it arises it with using multiple drivers.... The number of drivers not strings!!!! You are right about that limit.

 

[btldreef]

What I found about the drivers was that as long as you had them running through a programmer and had them gradually come on and gradually go off, as well as having them have power completely cut off to them when less than 11%, you'll avoid the "surge" that everyone is talking about.

 

[acrylic51]

BLTDreef so what your saying is that I'd the LEDs are at 11% or less with power cut off and back on your fine?

 

[cryptics]

My understanding is that the most dangerous time would be if there is a power outage and all of them come back on at once when power is restored. Most normal days would stagger the lights coming on so much less of a risk. Cash is a little sort for a few weeks after the first hit on this project but i think I am going to replace the drivers and get others. Does anyone have any suggestions? Is there a driver that i could control both strands of blues on one driver and both whites on another?

 

[2quills]

You'll more than likely be fine with just 4 ELN's. Kcress recommends using no more than 6 so I think you'll be alright.
As far as avoiding the inrush current by using a controller though I'm not sure if it works that way. The capacitors need to charge fully before they even fire the leds to begin with and the adjustment that comes into play is actually after the capacitors. With that being said though, unless your capacitors are discharging (the dreaded flash) when the lights are shut off then they may not need to pull the full 65 amps a piece to start running.
But, from what I understand is that the inrush is really the least of your worries when running those drivers. The bigger danger and problems come from the harmonics that are generated when running multiple switching supplies that don't have built in power factor compensation capabilities. And according to Kcress this is where the real danger of potential for fire and havoc being wreaked on your other electrical appliances that would be on that circuit as well.
I think it's time to ask some more questions over on the big thread and see what new information is out there. Because I am actually curious if there is a good way to mitigate the initial inrush since I plan to use a couple ELN's myself for the turf scrubber.

 

[242bats]

just did the same thing,(lol or not) this is what i have found out on my system. i am running 4 ELN's on the blue and 4 ELN's on the white i also have red i my system and running 3 of the LPC's on the red. i also have the rapidled controller.
with that being said this is what i found. if i have the system running and turn the power off on the controller and then turn the power off to the drivers i get the (flash). if i turn the power off to the drivers and then the controller i do not get the (flash).
with that being said are the (caps) still charged? and would this be better as for the power outage?
as for the harmonics i know i have too many drivers and working on that, have some new ones on the way.
hope this helps with the inrush ?
i still have the system running for now so i can do test on it if you would like me to.
good luck
david

 

[btldreef]

BLTDreef so what your saying is that I'd the LEDs are at 11% or less with power cut off and back on your fine?
No. They gradually turn on and off, but when turning off, the power gets shut off when they reach 11%. The controller never turns off, as it also runs my moonlights, but it cuts power to the drivers at 11%. I was told by numerous people that this was a safer way of running it. I've also been told that if they're ran with a controller, and you have them gradually come on and turning off, that it's much safer.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated#post_3403223
No. They gradually turn on and off, but when turning off, the power gets shut off when they reach 11%. The controller never turns off, as it also runs my moonlights, but it cuts power to the drivers at 11%. I was told by numerous people that this was a safer way of running it. I've also been told that if they're ran with a controller, and you have them gradually come on and turning off, that it's much safer.
Actually I'm inclined to agree that in regards to inrush current this would be a safer way to go than firing them up at full steam. As long as the capacitors weren't fully discharged when the drivers were shut off. Also, having them on separate channels to stagger the amount of drivers allowed to fire up at one time would further help. Still think that it's the lesser of two evils to worry about but anything you could do to mitigate risk is a good thing. What do your sources say about harmonics?

 

[btldreef]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated#post_3403298
Actually I'm inclined to agree that in regards to inrush current this would be a safer way to go than firing them up at full steam. As long as the capacitors weren't fully discharged when the drivers were shut off. Also, having them on separate channels to stagger the amount of drivers allowed to fire up at one time would further help. Still think that it's the lesser of two evils to worry about but anything you could do to mitigate risk is a good thing. What do your sources say about harmonics?
A lot of guys in my reef club have the same drivers/light build, or basically the same. Some are even running many more than I am. Many of them aren't concerned with the issues at all. The general consensus is that if the lights are gradually allowed to come on and off and are staggered as to when they come on and off, it's a lot safer. Add that to running them through a programmer, and it's even safer. I found that if I cut the power at 11%, I don't get the dreaded flash.
We had considered changing the drivers, and were almost sold on doing so, but so many members in our reef club are running the same things and not having issues, so we're going to push it for a little longer, especially since we run through a programmer and aren't getting the dreaded flash anymore. BTW, I do not use the RapidLED programmer, I have the Audrino (or however it's spelled, that's my husbands end of the tank stuff).

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated#post_3403445
A lot of guys in my reef club have the same drivers/light build, or basically the same. Some are even running many more than I am. Many of them aren't concerned with the issues at all. The general consensus is that if the lights are gradually allowed to come on and off and are staggered as to when they come on and off, it's a lot safer. Add that to running them through a programmer, and it's even safer. I found that if I cut the power at 11%, I don't get the dreaded flash.
We had considered changing the drivers, and were almost sold on doing so, but so many members in our reef club are running the same things and not having issues, so we're going to push it for a little longer, especially since we run through a programmer and aren't getting the dreaded flash anymore. BTW, I do not use the RapidLED programmer, I have the Audrino (or however it's spelled, that's my husbands end of the tank stuff).
That's pretty scary actually. Please understand that I was only concerned about the potential for your guy's safety. I made a couple statements on this thread yesterday. The first was that I didn't think a controller would help with inrush current at all and the second was that after thinking about it I was inclined to agree that it would. After some hard research last night for a couple hours I would like to retract my second statement and say that I firmly believe that a controller does absolutely nothing to prevent inrush current at start up or do anything to minimize the harmonic frequency that those driver produce. The information is out there for anyone willing to look into it, from real articles and not just hobbyist. The fact of the matter is that the capacitors on those drivers must fully charge on initial start up to operate, period! A partially discharged capacitor will take a few thousandths of a second less than a fully discharged capacitor would but the initial rush is going to happen regardless. Again this is the lesser of two evils to be concerned about. I'm at work and don't have the links off hand but anyone here can search it up on how non pfc power supplies operate and I'm sure will come to the same conclusion. High harmonic frequency producing "skinning" which occurs on the conductors (copper wiring) in your home, which is a slow but real degredation of the conductor. Just because there hasn't been a visible issue to point at thus far to be able to say I don't see any problem does not mean that it is not occuring right now and won't cause problems down the road.
I'd also recommend looking up harmonics/harmonic frequencies and power supplies to read up on how that all ties together and the risks and problems that it can bring. The issue I have here is that there are alot of diy'ers in the hobby and not enough real experts in this area. So we all follow each other lead not always understanding the bigger picture. So I would encourage anyone looking to diy a fixture do to as much research as possible. Not just on these drivers but any driver, even the higher voltage d.c. drivers as those can cause you some serious personal harm and even death if you're not careful. Point is, is that you wont find manufacturers building light fixtures in this way to sell to the public simply because it would be illegal for them to do so. So we all take the risks into our own hands when taking on these endeavors. So research and come up with our own conclusions so that you can asses the risks and come up with a comfortable plan that works for you, your home and your family.
Shawn, from what I've found for myself I believe that Kcress has been spot on with pretty much all of the info that he's provided us. This is something that I wish I had done a long time ago as far as searching out actual info in these areas. There are some things that can be done to minimize the risks as far as harmonic filters, running a dedicated circuit with a true path to ground..etc. I'll try to send you some links tonight. It is true that if you have enough of these stacked together than not only could it cause distortion in your own home but even wreak havoc on transformers which could even cause potential issues for your neighbors. He wasn't making that up.

 

[acrylic51]

Hate to be a spoiler, but the controller does nothing to combat the issues. 12 ELN's is a hazard!!!! I'd seriously advise to do some good hard research, regardless about what individuals claim!!! I've had detailed discussions with an individual about wiring and use of this many/types of drivers and bottom line an accident in the makings....
Even further discussion with Corey and his digging an his background he has found even more proof to validate the claim of why not to use these many ELN's regardless of controller or not, the capacitors still have to fully charge for the drivers to power the LEDs regardless of at 1% or 11%. Makes no difference, so either way the driver will still have the full onrush current we spoke of. Hopefully Corey will add more and his sources for all our reading pleasure!!!!

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated#post_3403475
Hate to be a spoiler, but the controller does nothing to combat the issues. 12 ELN's is a hazard!!!! I'd seriously advise to do some good hard research, regardless about what individuals claim!!! I've had detailed discussions with an individual about wiring and use of this many/types of drivers and bottom line an accident in the makings....
Even further discussion with Corey and his digging an his background he has found even more proof to validate the claim of why not to use these many ELN's regardless of controller or not, the capacitors still have to fully charge for the drivers to power the LEDs regardless of at 1% or 11%. Makes no difference, so either way the driver will still have the full onrush current we spoke of. Hopefully Corey will add more and his sources for all our reading pleasure!!!!
Jynx! haha
I'll pull out some links tonight, gotta get back to work.
To the o.p. I'm sorry for taking your thread off course man. I think you'll be fine with just 4 drivers. Nothing to be overly concerned about as you haven't crossed the threashold just yet.

 

[acrylic51]

BLTDreef does the Audrino have code written in that in the event power out reset all lighting output to 11%? The drivers capacitors still have to fully charge, so therefore it still has the onrush current.
Take an temp gun and shoot the temp of your circuit wiring before startup..., then during start up and through the phase in affect.... I'm quite sure over time you'll see those temp figured get higher the longer the system runs. Kinda like over loading a light switch???? It'll burn them out or like a breaker that ha little resistance..... You weaken it.

 

[acrylic51]

Thanks Corey!!!! I tried all ways to tap dance around Kcress on these issues. Again I had went so far as to ask about putting them on dedicated circuits!!!! He also advised my neighbors could reap the havoc these drivers can cause as well. Look forward to the links!!!! Thought you were at lunch!!!!!:laughing:

 

[cryptics]

2Quills/ acrylic51,
Ok I have been reading through the thread where you guys are helping 242bats with his drivers in his DIY build. I have to admit I know little of electrical work so I have a few questions. As of right now I will have 4 ELN drivers each running 12 LED's. They are the same ones as 242bats minus the red. I will have to verify but I am 90% sure 2 will run on each circuit to the breaker box. The only other things on those circuits are the pumps and the chiller for the tank. I understand that the drivers are pulling 65amps on a 20 amp circuit so it will cause overheating and possible damage to the wire while it is firing up. You lose me with Harmonics. My basic understanding is these drivers could cause dirty signals in the circuit which could cause other items on the circuit to receive "dirty" signals causing additional wear? This could also create heat in the wire and damage to the wire resulting in an unsafe situation. Best case wire life is cut down significantly worse case fire. Am I understanding this correctly?
In the other thread you suggest the HLG drivers. You said he may have to run everything in parallel. My plan was to to run strings of 12 -+-+-+ method. I know computers so excuse the reference but basically like an old Daisy Chain network setup. By parallel do you mean wire each LED back to the driver? Like a star network?
My next question is about the splash guard. The heatsinks i bought have drilled and tapped holes on the side if the sink. I was planning on attaching braces to the side and then acrylic across the front. The back of the heatsink would not be covered. It should be 8-10'' above the water. Does this sound ok? Can I use a solid piece of acrylic across the from or should I have holes cut out for the optics and silacone to make it watertight (real pain in the ass don't want to do this if I can avoid it.)
Would you guys recommend leaving my 2 T5 retros in the cabinet to run fiji purple bulbs or something to complete the color spectrum?
Thanks for all the help!

 

[acrylic51]

You need to determine what your draw is actually on each circuit..... Just add the amps up. Theoretically only use 80% of the 20 amps......
With an HLG driver sized correctly you would need 2 drivers an run your strings parallel; which isn't hard even I can follow. There is an excellent link/thread in which Kcress again walks us through build, setup and proper testing and balancing procedures. I will post later this evening. But yes 2 HLG drivers!!!! Also leaves you plenty of headroom and room to expand if needed down the road.
As far as splash shields Corey and I a long time ago threw it around.... I was going to do a splash shield with cut outs snug enough to only allow the optic to be connected and protrude. Some just hide everything behind the acrylic splash shield, so honestly I think a personal choice. I was doing mine that way to hide wiring more or less. You could possibly pot your connections in epoxy if you desired to, but a lot of work in a small area.