Had some deaths recently, can't figure out what went wrong/might still be going wrong

[lionstorm]

I recently lost 3 of my scooter blennies and a yellow tang from my 75 gallon FOWLR tank.
The tank has been established in my home for 6 months but prior to that the previous owners had had it with the 70 lbs of live rock for over seven years and we did not rinse the crushed coral bed or let it dry out.
The tank is currently set up with an undergravel filter and crushed coral substrate, but we will be switching to a deep sand bed soon. Running biowheels and a magnum 350 sump filter.
Never had any problems before this, I found two scooter blennies dead without warning and I understand it is quite possible that they starved, around the same time my red general starfish began wilting and looking not so good, and then without warning I found my yellow tang resting on the side of a rock, I took him out and put him in my QT tank where he died. The tang had been acting strangely before this, he wasn't eating as well as he normally did the day before, i should have read more into it.
After the tang's demise I did a 7 gallon water change and tested my water parameters: pH 8.0, ammon 0, trites 0, trates 12.5 salin 1.024 and temperature 81 F
I know the temperature is a little warm but it's in the middle of summer in Texas here and the AC can only keep the house at 81 degrees or else it costs us a fortune.
If the temperature is a big deal I could look into a fan if anyone thinks that will make a difference.
At first I thought the problem must be trates but they tested not that bad and I even tested them twice. The test kit I use is Tetratest Laborett.
I'm out of ideas, I don't know what could have caused this. Ask me questions if you need to I just want to keep my other fish alive (3 damsels, 1 porc puffer, 1 cinnamon clown and some crabs and snails and an urchine and brittle starfish which is still healthy)

 

[lionstorm]

bump. Any ideas?

 

[beth]

What test kit measures trates at 12.5? My guess is that they were considerably higher than that.
The star and crushed coral just doesn't mix. Yes, the blennies could have staved. Do you have LR??
I think once you go to a DSB system and add LR your tank will do a lot better.
What were you feeding the tang? Noice any HLLE on him?

 

[lionstorm]

I have about 70 lbs of live rock that came with the tank, the lady I got it from had it for 7+ years and it has a lot of growth on it.
My test kit has a color sheet you hold up next to the test results, the closest color was 12.5, its a Tetra test.
Before I was feeding the tang flake, a homemade frozen mix of seaweed and garlic and some cow heart that I get from my LFS.
The red general looked like he was doing better but now he is not looking so good. He has white open sores in his red skin beginning on two tenctacles and already far along on another.

 

[beth]

Originally posted by LionStorm
My test kit has a color sheet you hold up next to the test results, the closest color was 12.5, its a Tetra test.
Had to believe a UGF system has low nitrates but with a good amt of LR, it is certainly possible. One of the best tests are made my selifert. You may want to get another test kit to at least ensure accuracy.
Before I was feeding the tang flake, a homemade frozen mix of seaweed and garlic and some cow heart that I get from my LFS.
The homemade mix of seaweed and garlic is fine but marine fish need to eat marine foods. Tangs are primarily vegetarian and need a good deal of greenstuff in their diet. If you like to mix up your own fish food, and it is a very good idea to do so, then get some fresh seafoods at the seafood counter at the grocery store and make your own foods.
The red general looked like he was doing better but now he is not looking so good. He has white open sores in his red skin beginning on two tenctacles and already far along on another.
Generals, and most sand dwelling stars can not tolerate the sharp edges of crushed coral [very sharp as opposed to the smooth small grains of sand]. Place the star in a QT and ged the SAND bed going ASAP!

 

[lionstorm]

the starfish doesn't go on the crushed coral he just stays on the glass or comes near the surface when i feed so I make sure he gets spot fed.
Also I was very surprised about the low trates with an undergravel filter myself, I was so sure that was the problem.
I did a larger water change yesterday, about 15 gallons, and cross checked with my LFS some of my water and they reported my trates to be right around 12-13.
I just don't understand it. The pufferfish and cinnamon tomato are doing great. Even the bubble tip anemone is still fine! It can't be the water quality....But I don't think it's a disease either because everything else is fine.
I just don't know.

 

[beth]

I am not a star expert, but the fact that the star ISN'T going to the CC substrate, is likely telling you something. Post the problem in the Reef Forum for more info and input.
The other fish that are doing ok, are hardy fish, the ones that took a dive or are showing sickness are not. Hardier fish might tolerate some nitrites, while more delicate fish can not. Same with the star.

 

[lionstorm]

that's what I thought too. And the star is in QT now.
But all my tests show trites at zero and trates at a minimal level, could that low of trates have done so much damage?

 

[beth]

No, at that low, no.
What filtration do you have? Water movement?

 

[lionstorm]

I have a Magnum 350 sump and dual biowheels hanging over the side, I have a protein skimmer but I haven't been letting it run because the few times I ran it it never picked anything up.
I have one powerhead from one side of the undergravel working, the tube is broken on the other side.
After I get some live sand from this frag party in about a week I'll be switching over to a deep sand bed. I'll be leaving in several nylon stockings with crushed coral in them for about a month to two months depending.
I have a lot of life in my crushed coral that it may not take long for the deep sand bed to get filled with critters.
Beth I had another question, the other night I was looking at the tank with a flashlight after lights out and I saw a LOT of bristle worms swimming around in the water.
I've seen one or two do this before but never this many, like 30 or 40 just swimming all over the place.
I didn't know what to do, I read about someone seeing a lot of copepods swimming at night when I pulled up a search so I don't know. I know I have a huge bristle worm population in my cc bed, they don't usually come out like that though.
If you have any insight that would be great.
Also one of my friends suggested that my yellow tang could have gotten stressed from my puffer and not have been eating, I noticed he wasn't eating a day before he croaked, the only thing is that my puffer is normally very docile. Do you think this could be a possibility? I did notice small nips on the Tang's fins but nothing serious, some of them could have even been from before we got the puffer.
Sorry to write so much you have more posts to get to I'll stop.

 

[beth]

You have bristles swimming around....hmmm. You should ask in Reef. However, is it possible that the fish got brushed by swimming bristleworms???? Have you ever been brushed by a bristleworm? Let me tell you, it stings like heck and is irratating to the skin. This recently happened to me. I was trying to hand feed a large bristle in my tank and inadvertantly brushed it. The bristles stuck to the skin and wouldn't come off. They were so thin that you can not see them....but I sure could FEEL them.
Was this possibly the problem with your fish?

 

[lionstorm]

I wouldn't think so, I've only seen them do this at night. And they only did it that one night, never seen them do it before or after this but as anything is in this hobby Beth it is always a possibility.
I didn't notice any fish out swimming in the midst of them, everyone was pretty much sticking to the rocks or their anemone (my cinnamon clown)
I've been watching the water levels and everything still looks fine, Monday I'll take some water to my LFS for a second opinion.

 

[beth]

Did the sick fish situation occur after this event?
I'm not an invert expert, but it seems to me that bristles would have a hard time with cc for the same reason that starfish do. The edges are too sharp. They could hav been going after swimming copods to eat, brushed against these fish. Obviously a toxic situation for any fish that are subjected.

 

[lionstorm]

yes however this started happening (that I noticed anyways) after I lost the fish.
Also the worms are only swimming in open water in the front, not towards any of the live rock where the fish are sleeping.
But they are doing it again tonight. Which worries me. I posted in the reef section but no one seems to know, or if they know they haven't shared their knowledge with me yet .
What I don't understand is why they are all of a sudden doing this?
I just want to get my DSB in so I won't have to deal with this anymore. Maybe with that they will subside.
Also I doubt it was bristle worms that stung the tang, the tang was swimming around fine the morning it fell ill and passed away so quickly after that it just doesn't make sense.
The scooter blennies I'll just say starved unless they are sensitive to water quality (which my tests show wasn't the problem)

 

[lionstorm]

Okay let's play the assumption game
My yellow tang died because of lack of eating brought on possibly by stress from the pufferfish?
Scooter Blennies died from not enough copepods (i still don't see how they hunted the pods to extinction but it is possible I suppose)
And the starfish had a bad reaction to the crushed coral.
How long should I wait before I get a replacement fish?
I'm thinking a lawnmower blenny (have a lot of hair algae) and a Flame Hawkfish.
Possibly a Coral Beauty but someone advised me not to since the Puffer is a messy eater and could be bringing down my water quality.
What do you think Beth?

 

[beth]

Leave the tank fishless for a month. Don't get a lawnmower. The fish will take care of the hair algae alright, but will then starve after eating all the hairalgae. You do not have enough food source in your tank to support a lawnmower. This is a reef tank fish that requires a well established tank that also has a source for its dietary needs, like a refugium or an algae tank for food supply.

 

[lionstorm]

well red general passed on today. Think it was acclimation problems. Next time (which will be a long time if ever) I'll be more careful
everything else in my main display tank is fine. Star died in the QT. They don't release toxins into the water when they go do they?

 

[beth]

Sorry to hear. No more stars in cc

 

[lionstorm]

indeed Beth, i think it was acclimation shock though to be honest.
I *MIGHT* try an Orange Linkia a few months down the road after I get a deep sand bed in.
That's probably going to be my last starfish for awhile though. Poor thing.