Headache forming from my new DIY sump

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/3023498

Your drain lines are surging. This is because they are restricted. The water backs up at the restriction until it increases in volume enough that gravity can pull it down, then it flushes just like your commode does. Unrestrict the drains.
This sounds like the cause to me too, except he said this:
Originally Posted by truehle
http:///forum/post/3022984
Seems like the overflow box (outside of tank) is "thirsty" for more water. It definitely drains faster than water can be provided.
This to me would rule out a plumbing restriction. If the pipes were not handling the flow for whatever reason, then the overflow box would be backing up IMO.
At this point, I'd be inclined to blame the U-Tube.
However, I think your idea of upsizing the pipe is a good thing to do regardless. I never go out of a 1" drain bulkhead with 1" pipe... I almost always upsize at least to the next size immediately after the bulkhead. The greater the ratio of air to water in the pipes, the smoother the pipes are going to run. Drain lines have to breathe...

 

[wattsupdoc]

The OF box will appear to be handling it as the drains surge, because a gravity charged drain with no air , causes so much more water to flow faster than an air filled drain. As well the 1in drains can handle it in a a straight drop, you betcha. But as soon as it hits that first 90 it backs up then surges.

 

[truehle]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/3023920
The OF box will appear to be handling it as the drains surge, because a gravity causes so much more water to flow faster thazn an air filled drain. As well they can handle it in a a straight drop, you betcha. But as soon as it hits that first 90 it backs up then surges.
Thank you for hanging in there with me....
The Surge I was seeing was in the sump, not in the overflow box. Water level seemed (to me) to be rising and falling only where the drain lines entered the sump, maybe because of air pockets or something, or maybe because there's too much flow trying to get through the filter sock? The drain lines never seemed to backup as far as I could tell.
So what I've gathered since last night.....
I don't think I had the water height in the DT high enough causing an insufficient pressure differential between the DT and the overflow box, thus reducing the volumetric flow rate through the u-tube. The other night, I think I was trying to increase flow by lowering the prefilter box in the tank forgetting about the "basics of siphoning".

Yes, that worked, but only to a certain point.
I 100% agree with any of the posts above about my sump return volume being on the small side. Being a first time DIY sump/refugium builder I think I made the refugium section too big for the 33gal tank I have. As posted by you guys, I can modify some items to make a correction to that problem.
I was able to get full flow from my pump; however, at the expense of lots or noise and gurgling, and low volume in return section. So I ended up throttling it back, but not anywhere near where I had it the other night.

 

[wattsupdoc]

You will see the surging in the sump.

As it's not backing up all the way to the OF box before it flushes. Things will even out much better if you eliminate the restrictions.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by truehle
http:///forum/post/3023971
Thank you for hanging in there with me....
I just get frustrated when ever the problem(s) are evident to me, I post and then have to argue my points to get the point across, It's like I am not even being listened to. I don't mean to be rude, but just frustrated sometimes.

Raising the box may help some, but the problem lies in the 90's and the sump design.

 

[truehle]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/3024010
I just get frustrated when ever the problem(s) are evident to me, I post and then have to argue my points to get the point across, It's like I am not even being listened to. I don't mean to be rude, but just frustrated sometimes.

Raising the box may help some, but the problem lies in the 90's and the sump design.
Point taken.

I've got it. On drain lines, 90's are BAD!

On the reverse side of the coin, I've got the "I just spend lots of time and money on this and don't want to change it" syndrome.

Now for my wah-wah moment

That's why I spend so much time reading these forums is because I want to get it right the first time. In other words, measure twice, cut once. However, sometimes advice should be taken carefully. Because until the last couple days, I was under the impression that I'd be crazy to NOT put in ball valves, and now I'm thinking I was dumb for including ball valves.

All in all, I know its my system, and I will never ever point fingers at anyone.
So in your honest opinion, would you go with hard pvc plumbing with 45's and minimal restrictive fittings, or go with something like spa flex or the like?
I'll get there...just not today.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by truehle
http:///forum/post/3024063
Point taken.

I've got it. On drain lines, 90's are BAD!

On the reverse side of the coin, I've got the "I just spend lots of time and money on this and don't want to change it" syndrome.

I understand.
Now for my wah-wah moment

That's why I spend so much time reading these forums is because I want to get it right the first time. In other words, measure twice, cut once. However, sometimes advice should be taken carefully. Because until the last couple days, I was under the impression that I'd be crazy to NOT put in ball valves, and now I'm thinking I was dumb for including ball valves.

All in all, I know its my system, and I will never ever point fingers at anyone.
This is one of the reasons why I get so upset and frustrated here. There are many newbies and not so newbies here who give not so good if not down right bad advise. Anyone who gave you the advise to install the ball valves without increasing the size of the Ball valve gave you IMO bad advise. While some have ran systems with these installed this way with no known issues, that is not always the case. additionally many times a person may have an issue but it goes unnoticed. Maybe their return pump is grossly undersized? Then they upgrade to a more appropriately sized pump, suddenly they have issues. In the meantime they recommended to many people that they should install these because they did and have no problems. Sometimes people just don't realize they have a problem because it works, but they don't realize it doesn't work optimally. The advise I gave you comes from designing many systems and assembling several different setups. Not from someones first or second only tank. Now I'm not talking about Scsi Net here, his advise is hands down primo stuff, as well as many others. I'm sorry if I come off as an ass, but Many times I post up good solid advise and have some stinkin newbie come along and go UH-UH mines like this...Your ball valve scenario has happened to me many times before. I get fed up and want to leave this site because of it. However, I remain? [Instead I have made it my point to make an attempt to change it. Pointing out bad advise is not a popular thing to do. I have probably ticked off many. You too I suppose.

I am not a jerk, but just fed up. Now this isn't to say I'm not wrong, I am frequently, and will admit when I am. [/I]
So in your honest opinion, would you go with hard pvc plumbing with 45's and minimal restrictive fittings, or go with something like spa flex or the like?
Either is fine

increase the diameter to 1 1/4 and heat bend whenever possible. Back to back 45's are OK, but the further distance between them the better. Be sure if you use the flex stuff, it's smooth core, not the ribbed style. The Hard pipe makes a cleaner job. But be sure it has good fall on horizontal runs. The more the better.
I'll get there...just not today.

There was a time on here when many people would have told you not to install the ball valve on a drain. Or at least how to properly plumb one. There are many threads related to this subject. As well there is tons of info here on how to properly design a sump. There used to be some good sumps designed here. I rarely ever do it any more because so many people will come on and say "You don't need that set of baffles". Then the owner will build it and it doesn't perform like it should or could. Many times they don't even realize it. Sometimes they do, but blame me for it. When they didn't build it like I laid out. Because someone else posted they didn't need to. Then I end up in a long discussion of why it should have been this way, or do it that way....

 

[truehle]

wattsupdoc, I definitely appreciate the time you've taken, and I hope to receive advice from you in the future.
Typically what I can do is read as many threads as I can, and make an informed decision. A few people with sound advice are normally always right, but sifting through the haystack is quite an undertaking.
I come from an engineering background, chemical engineering to be exact. Needless to say I've done a 1001 experiments looking at the behavior of water flowing through pipes, but often time theoretical science doesn't match actual results (mostly because of rotten assumptions).
So when you say 90's are bad for these x-reasons, then I by nature look at my system and try to make sense of it, and then I tend to do a lot of thinking out loud, which typically gets me into trouble.
For good reasons, I don't just go and chop up my system without making a logical informed decision. Otherwise, it would be too easy to aim blame at someone if the "fix" didn't work.
I actually think it would be a good experiment to compare/contrast water flow through pipes using forced flow (sump pump), siphoned flow (python hose), and gravity feed flow (overflow box) utilized various fittings, pipes, etc.

 

[truehle]

Here is the layout of the sump/refugium.
Attachment 223554
The sump is a 33gal acrylic. 48"L x 12.75"W x 13"T. Baffles are spaced 1" apart. Sand is 2" deep. Water can safely be 12" deep without risk of overflow. There are (2)1" drain lines coming into sump thru filter sock, and (1)1" return line from mag-drive 9.5 pump.
Baffle #1 = 5" tall
Baffle #2 = 10" tall + 1" gap
Baffle #3 = 9" tall
Baffle #4 = 5" tall
Baffle #5 = 9" tall + 1" gap
Baffle #5 is 6" from sidewall of tank, baffle #1 is 30" from Baffle #5.
Water in return section is currently about 7-8 inches deep.
Refugium holds approximately 14 gallons, and currently I've provided about 7-8 gallons of backflow from DT.

 

[wattsupdoc]

If you think about the logic of it then it becomes very clear why they are not going to work in a drain with air in it. The water and air both enter the pipe and as such take up all available space in the pipe. It is flowing freely, at a rate based on the amount being supplied and the mass of the volume. It flows easily down a pipe free falling. Then it gets to the effective stop, the energy of the flow must change direction here to continue to flow. It needs more room than is available as the flow is now more erratic. It was prior occupying the full capacity of the pipe. Now it cant effectively pull more air through the line and the flow is a set rate. It begins to back up and increases in height in the line. At some point, the mixture will become void of air, now the water can flow through the line and occupy the entire space inside the conduit. It can flow at much higher rates this way. As well as move around tight bends. The water wants to flow and it surges through the line. Until air enters the point of restriction and the scenario starts all over.
Now look at how much restriction a 1 in ball valve puts on a line. They really choke it.
Now many people install drains on reef ready or drilled tanks that have ball valves on them without increasing the drain size. This is a different type of drain though. They throttle the valve back to increase the height of the water above a submerged pipe or bulkhead or whatever. At some point the air will cease to enter the line and and the water will flow rapidly through the drain. Very fast flow rates and very quite. You can not do this with an overflow box though or you risk certain flood.

 

[truehle]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/3024247
If you think about the logic of it then it becomes very clear why they are not going to work in a drain with air in it. The water and air both enter the pipe and as such take up all available space in the pipe. It is flowing freely, at a rate based on the amount being supplied and the mass of the volume. It flows easily down a pipe free falling. Then it gets to the effective stop, the energy of the flow must change direction here to continue to flow. It needs more room than is available as the flow is now more erratic. It was prior occupying the full capacity of the pipe. Now it cant effectively pull more air through the line and the flow is a set rate. It begins to back up and increases in height in the line. At some point, the mixture will become void of air, now the water can flow through the line and occupy the entire space inside the conduit. It can flow at much higher rates this way. As well as move around tight bends. The water wants to flow and it surges through the line. Until air enters the point of restriction and the scenario starts all over.
Now look at how much restriction a 1 in ball valve puts on a line. They really choke it.
Now many people install drains on reef ready or drilled tanks that have ball valves on them without increasing the drain size. This is a different type of drain though. They throttle the valve back to increase the height of the water above a submerged pipe or bulkhead or whatever. At some point the air will cease to enter the line and and the water will flow rapidly through the drain. Very fast flow rates and very quite. You can not do this with an overflow box though or you risk certain flood.
Ok. I think I'm up to speed with you now.

 

[wattsupdoc]

OK, the sump looks good.

If the job is as nice as the pic, good job.

Your baffles are a little closer to each other than I preffer, but work fine with what flow rate you'll have going through it. I come up with actually 34.44 gallons. But that doesnt allow for acrylic thickness. Still you should have 15.5 ish gallons of room left over for backwash. A standard 125 with 1.5in of backwash equals about 8.4 gallons. Now this is filled to the rim. Which I wouldnt recomend.1 in from the top as you have it is best. Whith the baffle in the return compartment at 5 in, you'll suck air as soon as it reaches that level. Obviuosly your getting about 13 gallons of backwash. Where's it all coming from? Some of it is tied up in the drains with the flushing you have. Of course yuor supply lines and return lines are full also, so we dont actually want 1.5 inches of water to drain from the DT. We only want about an 1in to drain from it.Try to drill the syphon break right at the waters level. Or just above for that matter. 1/2 inch of backwash from the display would allow 2.8 gallons to be added to the sytem. This would effectively solve the problem of running dry. But it may compound it if the flushing is enough of an issue. Worth an attempt anyway. Drill the syphon break higher then shut it down and see if theres not more room in the sump. Then add to within 1 in of top of sump.

 

[truehle]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/3024287
OK, the sump looks good.

If the job is as nice as the pic, good job.

Try to drill the syphon break right at the waters level. Or just above for that matter. 1/2 inch of backwash from the display would allow 2.8 gallons to be added to the sytem. This would effectively solve the problem of running dry. But it may compound it if the flushing is enough of an issue. Worth an attempt anyway. Drill the syphon break higher then shut it down and see if theres not more room in the sump. Then add to within 1 in of top of sump.

Yes, of course, its built just as nice as the picture!

I will try to get a couple pictures tonight to show off.
Well, I think most everything matches what you've suggested except for the drain pipes. Its not too big of a fix, but it will have to wait until this weekend unfortunately.

 

[truehle]

Actually, I have a couple here. Its during the water test though, not an installed pic. I get that tonight.
Attachment 223562
Attachment 223563
Attachment 223564

 

[truehle]

I removed pvc plumbing from the overflow box to the sump. I installed flex tubing, so no more 90's, valves, couplings, or anything else that could impede flow. I even went as far as to remove the filter sock for a couple days to maximize flow.
I still cannot have the ball valve fully open without overflowing my display tank. Its beginning to feel like a Eschopps 1200 (1000gph) overflow box cannot handle a mag 9.5 (after headloss = 760gph). I know several people have successfully done this, but I can't.

So is there anyone out there that has had this problem, and then successfully fixed it??? I shouldn't have to have my ball valve closed by 30%. Or maybe the overflow box just isn't really rated for 1000gph.

 

[xcali1985]

I have this same problem with my wet dry. I tinkered with the adjustments until the return was about the speed of the overflow. No matter where I sat the overflow box it never outmatched the pump. So i have my valve at like 45% or so. I figure its better to have the water flow into the wet/dry faster if worst came to worst than to pump an extra 5+ gallons into the DT and have it overflow on the sides.
I gave up on it, i want to get a sump in the near future anyways so I said the hell with it as long as it works, I know im not getting my turnover rate that i need but I have a lot of filtration. Its the protein skimmer that actually suffers thats sitting in the wetdry.
I truely tried for days on end to get this to balance and all efforts failed. I have a flex hose on the overflow and a 1/2" for the return and the pump still out does it even though its rated almost 200gph less than the overflow.

 

[truehle]

I finally found a solution. I cut a couple pieces out of the the baffles in the exterior overflow box (shown in blue). This increased the pressure differential between the display tank water and the outside box. Thus more water flow! I finally don't have to throttle back my sump pump.
I just used a dremel with a tile cutting bit for the vertical cuts, and a cutoff wheel for the horizontal cut.
Attachment 228262

 

[6mmmedic]

did i read way back up in the post that your drain line extends below the water surface in the sump? If it does then I believe this will slow your drain also. The drain would have constant pressure on it equal to the force of the water surrounding the drain pipe. Cut to to be about a half inch above the water surface of your sump. I drilled holes all over in mine also to diffuse some noise and helped a lot. I tried to(at first) have my drain pipe under the waters surface to reduce noise and it surged a lot. Once I cut it off and drilled it it never gave another problem. I run 700 gpm thru a single line eshopps with not one problem so i know you can run it.

 

[truehle]

Originally Posted by 6mmmedic
http:///forum/post/3093067
did i read way back up in the post that your drain line extends below the water surface in the sump? If it does then I believe this will slow your drain also. The drain would have constant pressure on it equal to the force of the water surrounding the drain pipe. Cut to to be about a half inch above the water surface of your sump. I drilled holes all over in mine also to diffuse some noise and helped a lot. I tried to(at first) have my drain pipe under the waters surface to reduce noise and it surged a lot. Once I cut it off and drilled it it never gave another problem. I run 700 gpm thru a single line eshopps with not one problem so i know you can run it.
Before the final modification, I had tried adjusting the drain line. Deep under water, slightly below surface, slightly above surface, etc. etc. While everyone's suggestions did slightly improve the flow rate, I still had the pump throlled back 50-70%. The only solution that worked was making the modification as I showed above.
One thing I tried before chopping my overflow box is that I put the U-tube directly over the 1" drain, and magically everything worked! So for me that meant it wasn't an issue of elbows, valves, etc....it was the fact that there wasn't enough water level difference between the DT level and the level in the outside overflow box.
To explain my point more...Lets say there was a 2" elevation difference between my DT and outside overflow box giving me 500 gph. Increasing the elevation difference to, lets say, 3" should increase the pressure difference by +50%. Small distance for that much increase, but it appeared that my flow rate increased by +50% too. Just make the cut so deep that you would lose the siphon if power goes out. For me that was 3/4"-1" deep cut.
I have the valve 100% open, and I believe I could goto a mag 12 without an issue.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Raising the ******** box would have given the same effect. Though it would have also raised the tank level. All the OF's I have seen are adjustable. However, good resolve!