Healthy behavior - not so healthy looks?

[badkharma]

I have had a Juv. Koran Angel now (he's 2" long) for about 2 weeks. I acclimated him for 4 hours and he has not been bugged by the tank mates at all from what I've seen. In the past few days I have noticed his caudal fin and left pectoral fin show signs of rot, as if chunks have been taken out. He also hangs out by the cleaner shrimp a lot to get cleaned. His blue and white color is still very beautiful and crisp, however his black is starting to fade somewhat. His eyes are clear and he'll come greet me and look me in the eye like a healthy angelfish should. Other than visiting the cleaner a lot, he spends his days grazing the LR and cruising around peacefully with the others - come feeding time, he eats like a pig and is very agile and quick. What could be the problem here? The other fish (a blue hippo, LMB, green chromis, cleaner shrimp) are perfectly healthy, with full color and no blemishes. I don't see any aggression at all between any of them and I've watched the tank for over an hour just to see if someone has been nipping at his fins. No action. But now that his black is starting to fade somewhat, I'm thinking it's something else. Water parameters are as follows:
Salinity 1.026 (Refractometer)
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates < 10
Ph 8.2
Temp 82 F
The tank has been running for well over a year. My equipment is a Filstar XP3 canister filter with all biomedia removed (have enough LR/LS) - I keep it running for mechanical filtration as well as running two bags of Chemi-pure. I also use a HOB Aqua C Remora Pro skimmer that does a good job of pulling crap out of the water. My coralline growth is abundant and everywhere (powerheads, hermits, etc). All that being said I think my tank is pretty healthy. I feed once daily - a mix of frozen brine, mysis, formula two, and angel formula - with a dose of Kent Vitamin C and Seaweed Selects for grazing. I am very careful to not overfeed - all the food is gone (except the seaweed in the clips) in 5 minutes - and if there are leftovers, they are quickly consumed by the cleaner shrimp and army of hermits. I do water changes to the tune of 10% approximately every two weeks. I topoff with RO water. I'm thinking my temp might be a little high - causing stress - so I reset my heater this morning to come on at 76 instead of 78 - perhaps it's thermostat is off a bit. I run the JBJ 2x 96 watt combo 10K bulbs which I highly doubt throw off enough heat to keep the tank at 82 F. Any other suggestions of what could be going on with the angel? My stocking is very low, and the tank is currently large enough for the size/quantity of fish that are in it. Any thoughts? Sorry for the long post...

 

[gregvabch]

i assume that you didn't quarantine your angel. it's very possible he had something when you bought him. where did you buy him from? how long did they have him for? what did the other fish in the tank with him, (at the pet store) look like? if it were me, i would have pulled him out already. do you have a qt tank? you could be risking the lives of your other fish if it is in fact some sort of parasite or ailment. any pictures of him?

 

[badkharma]

No QT - yet. That is my next purchase, even before the future 180. The store I got him from is awesome - very healthy livestock - I've never seen any fish there die from disease. I saw him there 2 days after they got him, so I put him on hold for about a week and a half just to make sure. He was doing perfect. He still behaves perfect - I'm just worried about the slight discoloration and fin rot. I just checked him out now though and it looks like the caudal fin rot is filling back in (I've noticed that rot for about 4 days). I also just did a major water change just to be sure. I do need to cool my tank down though - it was at 83 F. My house thermostat is at 77 F, so it's gotta be my lights or heater or something....

 

[badkharma]

Any other tips/insight?

 

[beth]

Can you post a pic of the areas of concern? Is the "rot" really like chunks, moon shaped chunks off the fish fins, or are fins ragged and frayed, stingy, or do they seem to be worn down, degenerating?
Did the fish develop this problem in your tank or since you got him?

 

[badkharma]

They look like moon shaped chunks - not stringy at all - which led me to believe he was bitten - but since I didn't see any aggression at all and his black color is fading somewhat, I was thinking it might be something else. He developed it about a week after being in the tank. I wish I could post a pic - I'll see what I can do.
I am worried about my tank temp though - still hovering around 83 F with the house at 77 consistently and me turning the heater down to come on at 76 instead of 78. I am running a fair number of things that generate heat though - like 3 powerheads, the filstar xp3 canister filter, an aqua c remora pro with a maxijet pump...that combined with my lights might be the problem. I'm definitely putting a fan there when I get home from work (pssst...don't tell anyone at my work...lol).

 

[beth]

Moonshape means bites--clean bite offs. Also, just because you don't catch the aggression doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I had aggression suddenly rear its ugly head in my FO tank after the fish had been in the tank for nearly 2 yrs. I had to watch and watch before I finally saw who was causing the problem with the rest of my fish.
Yes, you will need to see if fan will do the trick. We all come on here during work "breaks".

 

[badkharma]

So, out of the following: blue hippo (2.5"), the LMB (3"), the green chromis (1") or the cleaner shrimp or red general star, who is to blame? I would think LMB - he has the biggest mouth. BTW, I came home from work (I'm at home now) and his tail is doing better - filling back in, his color is still the same, but he's eating with vigor like the others, if not more. BTW, I just started using the Kent Marine Vitamin C as I noticed his color was fading about a week ago, so hopefully that helps somewhat.

 

[beth]

Well, let me tell you who was the innocent looking culprit in my tank.........HIPPO! But not bites. He sworded all but one fish.
I'd still like to see a pic if you can post one.
Zoe is a quality vitimin. You can also alternate with garlic soaked frozen or fresh foods.

 

[badkharma]

Thanks for the tips, Beth. I've noticed last night that he was rubbing his face against the rock - right under his eye before the gill on the side with the fin "rot". But I don't see any blemish or anything there at all. His caudal fin is almost filled back in, and it looks like the pec fin is filling in as well, but it's hard to tell. I'm actually going to turn my other 60 gal. non-show tank in the office into a quarantine tank. Right now it has around 45 lbs of LR and about 1 inch aragonite sand with an emperor 400 and CPR skimmer and basic 50/50 flourescent lighting. I don't really want to get rid of the LR in there (I know you don't really want it in the QT tank) as I might be getting a larger tank in a few months and would combine it with the current rock. It also has 2 damsels in there that I'll be taking back to the LFS because they are holy terrors. I also just got my refractometer last week and the salinity on that tank was at 1.031, the display at 1.025, and the hydrometer was showing them at the same - 1.026. I'll never trust one of those swing arm things again. So hopefully the QT will be setup within a week, and the damsels will be gone, and I'll move him in there if he doesn't completely heal.

 

[beth]

I've noticed last night that he was rubbing his face against the rock - right under his eye before the gill on the side with the fin "rot".
This fish very likely has some parasites, thus you see the rubbing. I’m glad that you are going to turn such a large setup into a QT! WOW, I’m jealous. I only have a 20gal long, but for the few smallish reef fish that I get for my reef, it does well enough.
I actually have some “ex” Live Rock in my QT; just because I needed to thin out the LR in my display to make room for growing corals. This rock still will have bio-filter bacteria on it but it has been thru hyposalinity and no longer has the reef microfauna that we pay top dollar for. The bottom line with any porous medium is that it absorbs most medications, particularly antibiotics and copper. Thus, not only would the absorption of medications by rock, or even sand, result in a dilution of vital medicinal therapy, the medium additionally becomes contaminated by the chemical treatment. In the case of copper, obviously you need to maintain a certain therapeutic level during treatment, or the procedure becomes useless. Likewise the same with antibiotics [which does not require the precise measurement that you find with copper applications but still needs to be fairly dose accurate]. Bottom line is, that you should find another home [like a rubbermaid with a PH] for your LR, then convert it to a QT. Or, don’t get anymore fish until you have finished up with the new tank. A treatment of this new fish with hyposalinity probably would have cleared up the itching. However, if you place this fish in the same tank as your LR and have to treat with medications or hyposalinity, then you ruin the rock. If you treat with meds, the rock can never be used again in a reef tank or a tank that will have inverts.
As for fin regeneration, it seems that the aggression theory was correct. Hopefully, tankmates will settle down and there will be no more fin chunks removed.
I am glad that YOU pointed out the discrepancies in swingarm hydrometers. I am always trying to point this out, and the fact that these flawed instruments should not be used for any application in the hobby. They are worthless, and even dangerous.

 

[badkharma]

So what would be the best method to take care of these parasites? He is still eating like crazy and only occasionally rubbing and making stops by the cleaner shrimp...

 

[beth]

Well, if you had your QT set up, I would suggest going with hyposalinity. However, at this point, since the fish does not appear to be in immediate threat, you can continue with the biological cleaner and also add some heavy garlic food soaks, using fresh minced garlic.

 

[badkharma]

Thanks for all your help Beth. The QT isn't setup yet, but the Koran seems to be doing better - his black color seems to be coming back a bit more today, and his pec fin is filling in - the caudal fin "rot" - yeah, right - rot, my a$$ (while glaring at blue tang) is almost completely gone - and his eyes are still completely clear (they always were) and he still eats like a pig. I haven't seen him rub today either. I've stuck to the regimen of daily supplements and strict water quality measurements/maintenance. Now that both of those things have developed into more or less a habit - I hope none of my fish will get sick for a long time, if ever again - and if so, I'll have a QT to put them in soon. My gosh, the juvi Koran is so beautiful...

 

[badkharma]

Well, he seemed to be improving, and I didn't want to bother him to put him in QT (I would have long ago if it was setup by then). I kept up the regimen of dosing the tank with Kent Vitamin C as well as dosing their food lightly (1 or 2 drops only and about 20 in the tank). Now, on the weekend (July 2 actually) I bought a UV sterilizer w/ a pump and hooked it up. 3 days later, the Koran is just like when I got him - full color, not a blemish anywhere. All of his fins have filled in already. The other fish are also reacting "healthier" and the water couldn't be clearer (Looks like there IS no water). The red algae has already backed off, but the coraline continues to grow as well as the pods (from what I can tell in 3 days anyway). So I'm very impressed. Of course, I will not rely on the UV and will always QT fish now when I get them, but it sure made a difference and will help prevent future infections. I'm still continuing to dose the food as well (not the tank because I'm assuming the UV will render that dose useless). Thanks for all your help Beth, you were definitely a part of helping me restore the Koran back to the healthy state it is now.