Help me diagnose my dead fish

[nickbuol]

Odd subject, I know...
We just lost our nice Pacific Blue Tang last night, and I am trying to find out what went wrong.
We have a 75 gallon tank with 65lbs of live rock, etc, etc.
The parameters are as follows (based off of tests taken over the last couple of days since we noticed he was sick).
pH 8.1
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 15
Salinity 1.021
All fish have been in the tank for over 5 months and growing nicely. Our coral frags have been doing great (was told that this is a good sign of good water quality).
OK, now for the story.
2 days ago, my wife called me during the day at work, and said that he had pop eye. I was just watching the tank the night before like usual, and didn't notice anything. I am guessing that it was an injury from something, but I am not sure. I got home that night and set up the hospital tank with a piece of live rock (the tang's favorite one that he sleeps in) and a couple pieces of PVC pipe like I have in the past.
I checked the water parameters and adjusted the temp, pH and salinity to be the same as the main tank. Everything else was zero, including Nitrates. We got him out of the main tank and into the hospital tank. He freaked out at first swimming around like nuts for about 30 seconds, before calming down and hiding behind the PVC. We added some Maracyn II. I had read to do a double dose for 7 days for pop eye. I, for whatever dumb reason, miscalculated and did a single (instead of a double dose).
I didn't realize this until yesterday, but a regular dose is better than too much, so I wasn't concerned.
Yesterday before work, I noticed that he was in his piece of live rock sleeping just like he did in the main tank. I was encouraged.
After work, I looked at him, and he was still in the same spot in the tank, so I turned on the light, and he shortly there after started swimming around, and his pop eye was looking a ton better already, but then he started hiding again. When he hides, he lays flat on his side and tries to wedge under something. I didn't suspect anything to be wrong so I then added another dose of Maracyn II (I did the double dose this time).
This was about 5:30pm, and he was swimming around a little bit, but not much, mostly hiding until I last checked on him at 9:00pm. At 11:30 I went by him on my way for a late night snack, and he was lying flat in the same hiding spot, breathing heavily. I became concerned. After looking at him more, and how his pop eye was doing so much better, I had to make the call. Keep him in the hospital tank and completely let him heal, or put him back in the main tank where he may be happier. We decided to put him in the main tank. I was netting him out of the hospital tank, and he would just sit there while I pushed him around trying to get him in the net, but as soon as he was in the net, he would dart about 3 inches one way, then another, and another about 5-6 times. I scooped him out and put him in the main tank. He went right to the bottom and layed down flat between a couple pieces of live rock. I tried to nudge him so that he would swim off, but he never did. We had seen him act wierd like this before where he acts dead (playing possum) but just is trying to hide. I didn't know what else to do, and figured that he was just stressed out. I turned off the lights in the tank (I turned them on so I could see what he did). Anyway, this morning, sure enough, he was about a foot away from where he was last night, and a small group of crabs we having breakfast. I checked the parameters in both tanks, and the main tank was the same as stated above, and the hospital tank had the same temp, salinity, pH, and everything else was zero.
Please help. This was one of our favorite fish. He was a bit shy and skiddish all of the time, but got along with the others in the tank, and seemed to have fun swimming all around the tank.
Right now I have a sick feeling in my stomach, and I want to at least learn something from this so that it never happens again.
__________________
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[beth]

Hard to give you any exact diagnosis of what went wrong. The fish seemingly had a bacterial infection as demonstrated by the popeye and then his sudden death. Popeye does not necessarily mean that an infection process was limited to just the eye. There could well have been internal infection as well.
Additionally, the fish, being sick and already immune compromised, was subjected to extreme stress when you moved him over to the hospital tank. Additionally, netting a fish and taking it out of water is yet another stress [not to mention can cause injury to the fish. Think of it this way, if you were sick and lying in bed and someone came in and held a pillow over your face for 10 sections depriving you of 02, would that have an effect on you and your getting well? Hmmmm......]. You also had lights on and off and on again to check on the fish. I know how that is, but sick fish, especially when using antibiotics, needs lights off with maybe just some house lighting filtering over to the tank. Aquarium lighting, especially turning them on and off, is a significant stressor for fish, and UV also diminishes the potency of antibiotics. You also under medicated the fish the first day, when the fish should have been getting a good blast of medication. The dosage was basically useless, which prolonged the fish receiving adequate treatment by 24-hrs. Additionally, to satisfy your need to see how the fish was doing, you scooted him about the tank to see how he was moving. Oh boy, big stress here. And, finally, you returned a sick fish to the main tank wo ever really treating him...again another stressful process! Transfer of fish is probably one of the most stressful times for fish, especially when you use a net. I don’t know why you moved the fish back exactly because the stress or the move to and from did not really serve a purpose. The fish wasn’t treated.
These fish are very skittish, as you already know. Stress to a fish that is high strung, is double the trouble.
I would suggest that you follow TerryB's post on fish stress that is now being featured in our Fish Forum. You might pick up some valuable info. Sometimes we are our fishs’ worst enemy, but with a genuine love of this hobby and our swimming pets, which you obviously do have, I know you will take that next leap into the less exciting learning process of this hobby and study up on fish care, diseases and stress.
[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Beth ]

 

[nickbuol]

Geez, Beth... A little sympathy would be nice. You act like I TRIED to kill the fish.
Anyway, point well taken about stress, he just seemed to be doing better, and the only reason I turned the light on in the hospital tank was when I tried to feed him a little bit of food. You make it sound like I put a strobe light on him.
As for proding him along, it was mainly to keep water flowing over his gills. I've witnessed fresh water fish (Koi in my parents ponds) that were sick, after getting some meds, my dad would take the fish, hold it, and move it through the water. Sure enough a few minutes later it would be swimming on it's own again. Of course that was 15 years ago, and with 12" koi fish.
My point is that I didn't want to kill the fish, I just paniced when things started looking worse. As for the medicine, I did the recommended dosage from the Maracyn folks, so it should have helped. (I still don't know who is right, the manufacturer, or people here.)
If you had a child who was sick, and the doctor gave them medicine to make them better, and things were going well, then all of a sudden the child got worse, was breathing hard, and not moving. What would you do? (of course you have to imagine that 911 didn't exsist, etc, etc so help was not available in 5 minutes) You would do everything that you thought would help. Right or wrong, you would do it.
Of course, that is a bit of a streach in an analogy, and please understand that my frustration is just because I am saddened by the death, and the post still hasn't helped me a whole lot)...
So here are some things that I would like to learn:
1) How do I catch a fish when need be without a net? When he was in the main tank, he was still a fast swimmer.
2) Would a UV sterilizer help against the bacteria in the water and possible ahve prevented this from happening to begin with?
3) I am concerned about something spreading to the other fish, what steps should I take to prevent that?
Thanks again, and Beth, please accept my appologizes for my ranting, I am just upset.

 

[beth]

Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound unsympathetic or accusatory....I guess I’ve been spending too much time in the Disease Forum lately as the same problems keep coming up with hobbyists and, perhaps, my own frustration level is showing. Actually, I do empathize with your situation, and I know exactly what you mean about becoming anxious when one of our pet fishes is sick and or dying. Unfortunately, there aren’t too many fish vets out there that we can call to help us through these trying times and it is left up to us to not only try to figure out and treat our fish, but also deal with the problem without really having all the knowledge we need to do so. It is frustrating and sad when this happens. Myself, I lost my little female clown this week after she suffered an attack by my tang in May. She was hit in the gill by the tang’s sword and never really recovered. I managed to keep her alive until now, but I wonder to whose advantage, mine or the clownfish’s?
1) How do I catch a fish when need be without a net? When he was in the main tank, he was still a fast swimmer.
Catching fish is a real problem which is why we are supposed to take all the steps we can to avoid the necessity of catching them. However, when it is unavoidable, the best way is probably to chase it with a big net into a little bucket, then scoop him up in the bucket [some use a big ziplock]. That way, fish has no contact with air or is damaged by the net. [BTW: I have found myself in predicaments with netting fish, and having to actually cut the net off the fish, so I am speaking from experience.]
2) Would a UV sterilizer help against the bacteria in the water and possible have prevented this from happening to begin with?
You have a FO system so a UV is definitely a good idea. UV is primarily a filtration system for parasitic control, but it does, also help in reduction of opportunistic bacteria. If you decide to get a UV, get one that is rated for your size tank and one that has a quartz sleeve. Additionally, during antibiotic treatment, like the lights, you need to turn off the UV.
3) I am concerned about something spreading to the other fish, what steps should I take to prevent that?
With popeye, you really don’t know if it was a bacterial infection, or, simply an injury. It is a wait and see situation here, but most bacterial infections don’t spread like parasites. I would do a large water change in your main tank.
You’re not ranting; perhaps I was, though! We love our fish and it is hard, for me as well, not to handle them or treat them as if they have human qualities and needs.
[BTW: About the lighting...In terms of fish stress, turning lights on and off suddenly, is very stressful, particularly for a sick fish and doing the on and off within a short period. Fish view light as daylight and dim or no light as night. To have them appear and disappear suddenly must be quite a wake up call for our little fishy friends! That is why there is a whole industry out there that sell expensive lighting dimmers.]
[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Beth ]

 

[pufferlover]

Nick; I realize you were upset by your loss but in reading all the prior 3 posts I have to say that I think Beth was not in anyway being unkind. You asked what happened and I think she answered it quite well. In this hobby we are our own worst enemies. The stupid things I have done over the years would fill a book. Frankly I wish years ago there was someone to tell me truthfully where I blew it (a lot more fish would be alive). Anyway just wanted to give you my opinion on the correctness of the answer you got, and to say of course we other members feel bad when any of us (who like you seemed to do our best) lose a fish, but we learn from it hopefully. Sometimes tho there is no cut and dried answer only good old detective work and good experience guessing.

 

[nickbuol]

OK, one other question about the UV. Why for a FO tank? We have inverts and some coral frags that are growing well.
Any recommendations on brands? What about the Azoo Hurricane? It would be pretty close in matching my system, and it is less expensive that other UVs, but I don't want to skimp either.

 

[pufferlover]

Nick; you looking for a hang on or in line Uv. I am not familiar with the azoo brand. If you are looking hang on then I recommend the seastorm double pass brand (I have 3 of them and like them both for their price and seemingly good effects on the 3 tanks I put them on.