Help with final designing stage

[dirk_brijs]

OK guys 9 more days to go before I get back home and will start my large upgrade.
Before that I would like to post this thread where I would like you guys to help me out with certain question I have about my final design stage before I actually start my build cause of things I might have overlooked and or not thought about before I make some stupid build mistakes.
Hope you guys can help me out here

 

[dirk_brijs]

1st question overflow box
came up with this design for my overflow/wavebox.

the drain pipes would be both 2"
the 2 other holes would be intakes for my CL. They are both 2' and will be connected to a Reeflo Dart pump each feeding my CL.
the question now is would this work or create too much of a vortex having water sucked in the intake for the CL and drain pipes that close to one another?

 

[dirk_brijs]

2nd question increase water volume
The DT would be 500 Gallon the Sump/Fuge set up would add another 300Gallon to the system.
Now I would like to connect 2 large water (200gallon) storage tanks to the system which would help me doing my water changes emptying them and filling them up with fresh ocean water every 2 weeks.
The tanks I am talking about look like this

they both will be connected to my system again to increase water volume and with a switch of a button I can empty them and refill.
The question now is could storing water in dark tanks bad or it would have no effect at all to the water quality. Water pumps will be installed in the tank to provide constant water movement though just no lighting at all.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk_brijs http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475857
OK guys 9 more days to go before I get back home and will start my large upgrade. Before that I would like to post this thread where I would like you guys to help me out with certain question I have about my final design stage before I actually start my build cause of things I might have overlooked and or not thought about before I make some stupid build mistakes. Hope you guys can help me out here
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk_brijs http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475858
1st question overflow box
came up with this design for my overflow/wavebox.

the drain pipes would be both 2"
the 2 other holes would be intakes for my CL. They are both 2' and will be connected to a Reeflo Dart pump each feeding my CL.
the question now is would this work or create too much of a vortex having water sucked in the intake for the CL and drain pipes that close to one another?
I am assuming that those two bulkheads that don't have pipes into them are for your closed loop drains? If it is, then yes, you do have a problem with this design. Closed loop pumps should never be starved of water- and if they suck in any air at all you will have a million microbubbles in the display tank constantly. I highly suggest putting your closed loop drains directly onto the tank side itself, underneath the box. Strainers should be placed over them, and they don't look that bad and can be hidden by rocks.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk_brijs http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475860
2nd question increase water volume
The DT would be 500 Gallon the Sump/Fuge set up would add another 300Gallon to the system.
Now I would like to connect 2 large water (200gallon) storage tanks to the system which would help me doing my water changes emptying them and filling them up with fresh ocean water every 2 weeks.
The tanks I am talking about look like this:
(picture edited)
they both will be connected to my system again to increase water volume and with a switch of a button I can empty them and refill.
The question now is could storing water in dark tanks bad or it would have no effect at all to the water quality. Water pumps will be installed in the tank to provide constant water movement though just no lighting at all.
I believe you would find this thread interesting:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/391723/water-change-reservoirs
It talks about what you are wanting to do. A container of water that will not only add water volume to the system but also be used to drain and make new fresh water in. There is also a way that you can plumb it into your system to create a siphon to remove detritus from your sand, rocks, and sump and then pump the water out of the reservoir. Then you turn a valve and put it off line while the same pump mixes your new salt water. Your display tank and sump never have to be turned off again during water changes...

 

[dirk_brijs]

mmm good point about the overflow box. Though would still like to find a way to have absolutely no drains in my tank. The issue I have is that I would adding a substantial number of Anemones to the tank which always seem to be drawn to some sort of drains hidden inside any rock work.
would it help to remove the 90degree extensions to the design so the water would flow horizontally into the drain pipes?
As for the water storage tanks the question was more if storing water in light deprived tanks would be harmful for any bacteria population?

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk_brijs http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475864
mmm good point about the overflow box. Though would still like to find a way to have absolutely no drains in my tank. The issue I have is that I would adding a substantial number of Anemones to the tank which always seem to be drawn to some sort of drains hidden inside any rock work.
would it help to remove the 90degree extensions to the design so the water would flow horizontally into the drain pipes?
As for the water storage tanks the question was more if storing water in light deprived tanks would be harmful for any bacteria population?
Well, my problem with the design is that if your closed loop pumps are more powerful than your return pump at 6 or 8ft of head height - then your closed loop is going to suck that box dry before your return pump can keep up with it. Now, if your return pump was much, much more powerful than your closed loops and is pushing way more water than your closed loop pumps are - then it could work as long as the box was extended downwards a bit to try to keep microbubbles from reaching the closed loop drains. Either way, I forsee problems. Maybe Acrylic and 2quills can jump in on this one..... but I am pretty sure my reasoning is correct.
The water storage tanks are fine to keep in the dark. No problems there.

 

[dirk_brijs]

wouldnt a closed loop push the water back in the tank as fast as it pulls it out? Anyway the pumps on the closed loop are 2 Reeflo Darts and the return pump would be a Reeflo Barracuda

 

[dirk_brijs]

would this help if I would turn around the 90 degree extensions upwards so the water drains from the top?

 

[snakeblitz33]

No, it wouldn't help. You would still be draining the box faster than you will be filling it.
Turning the sump drains upwards don't help anything when it comes to your closed loop.

 

[dirk_brijs]

Made the overflow box deeper.

As it is a closed loop wouldnt the overflow box stay full if I adjust my starting level in the tank as such the overflow box would always stay at least half full?
With the water pumped out of the overflow box the level in the tank would rise again thus supplying water back to the overflow box?
Or am I seeing it all wrong?
Need all the advise needed I think lol

 

[snakeblitz33]

Lets say you have a return pump pumping 100g per hour and it is circulating the display tank and the sump. It's operating at 100gph constant. That means that there is 100gph going over the overflow teeth. Then, you have two closed loop pumps in the overflow, each pumping 200gph each out of the box. (400gph out of the box) So that means that you are getting a constant 100gph into the box, but pumping out 400gph out of the box... it just doesn't work. The box will run dry. The water from the closed loop doesn't go anywhere - it does not make the water level in the display tank rise or fall. The return pump does.

 

[dirk_brijs]

mm? dont realy get that?
Doesnt the 400Gallon coming out of the box go back into the tank thus overflowing back into the overflow box eventually as it originated from the tank thus lowering the level of the tank?
I thought the flow over the teeth would be then the 100 gallon from the return plus the 400 gallon from the CL as it will be returned into the tank?
Maybe the term CL is wrong as I see it more as using the overflow box as a "sump area" used by the 2 Darts? so the darts pull water from the overflow/sump to return it back to the DT that in its turn overflows the water back into the overflow/sump?
or doesnt that make sense at all

 

[2quills]

I can't really see this working. You're going to have to isolate your closed loop intakes from the overflow box. Imagine the power is off, then imagine the power gets flipped back on. What's going to happen is that your closed loop pumps are going to suck the overflow box dry probably within a hand full of seconds. Once that happens they are going to try and suck every drop of overflow water that enters the box. Basically the overflow box would never fill back up high enough for the drains feeding the sump to get any water and you'll run your return pump dry. Bubbles would be blowing everywhere. There may be enough water in the return chamber for the return pump to pump enough water up to the tank and into the box to cause it to fill up high enough for the two drain systems to find equilibrium with one another. But something tells me that I really doubt it could ever be a reliable way to run things.
I'd rotate the bulkheads and just drill them into the side of the tank right in front of where they are now. You could make a flat strainer to fit into your bulkheads that would be very low profile so nothing too large would get sucked in and nothing would protrude out into the tank.

 

[snakeblitz33]

If your return pump turns off, your closed loop pumps will run dry and burn out for sure.
I agree with 2quills.
I just don't see this concept working.

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk_brijs http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475943
would this help if I would turn around the 90 degree extensions upwards so the water drains from the top?

Nope you won't see any significant increase in flow with the elbows turned upside down.....The pipe diameter is ultimately going to dictate what the overflow box will flow........
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk_brijs http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475864
mmm good point about the overflow box. Though would still like to find a way to have absolutely no drains in my tank. The issue I have is that I would adding a substantial number of Anemones to the tank which always seem to be drawn to some sort of drains hidden inside any rock work.
would it help to remove the 90degree extensions to the design so the water would flow horizontally into the drain pipes?
As for the water storage tanks the question was more if storing water in light deprived tanks would be harmful for any bacteria population?
A CL as Seth pointed out is like a double edged sword.....No easy way around it. If you want a CL you'll have to drill the tank......Others might chime in and say you can go up and over the top, but bottom line you want and need reliability in the even the power would go out.....Basically the up and over would be a possible issue for the pump to loose prime if it were to experience a power outage.....Not a chance I'd like to take with a $400 pump......
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475868
Well, my problem with the design is that if your closed loop pumps are more powerful than your return pump at 6 or 8ft of head height - then your closed loop is going to suck that box dry before your return pump can keep up with it. Now, if your return pump was much, much more powerful than your closed loops and is pushing way more water than your closed loop pumps are - then it could work as long as the box was extended downwards a bit to try to keep microbubbles from reaching the closed loop drains. Either way, I forsee problems. Maybe Acrylic and 2quills can jump in on this one..... but I am pretty sure my reasoning is correct.
The water storage tanks are fine to keep in the dark. No problems there.
Again anything is possible, but true CL's aren't run through or in conjunction with your overflow box......Trying to get pumps perfectly matched can be a nightmare......You also will play heck trying to get the overflow box (system) quite IMHO.......My example again is "if" you loose your return pump for whatever reason......No you have 2 issues.....You have no water flow from and through your sump do to the main pump going down.....Now not only did you loose your main pump, but you'll burn the CL pump up, because now your starving it of water since there will be no water entering the overflow box.......
Another note, I just thought of......Your CL pump is always going to be bigger than your return pump, so again you might have issues with the CL pulling way faster than your return pump........
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk_brijs http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475929
wouldnt a closed loop push the water back in the tank as fast as it pulls it out? Anyway the pumps on the closed loop are 2 Reeflo Darts and the return pump would be a Reeflo Barracuda
You might want to rethink your pump layouts......Barracuda is way to much pump to be pushing through as the return.......Theoretically you should use the Dart for the return and the Barracuda for the CL.....You honestly wasting energy at this point running your CL with 2 separate pumps.....As the tank grows in and corals mature, that would be the time to consider adding the additional pump to the bulkhead.....At the beginning you could easily get away with just using 1 pump to drive the CL system.

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475965
I can't really see this working. You're going to have to isolate your closed loop intakes from the overflow box. Imagine the power is off, then imagine the power gets flipped back on. What's going to happen is that your closed loop pumps are going to suck the overflow box dry probably within a hand full of seconds. Once that happens they are going to try and suck every drop of overflow water that enters the box. Basically the overflow box would never fill back up high enough for the drains feeding the sump to get any water and you'll run your return pump dry. Bubbles would be blowing everywhere. There may be enough water in the return chamber for the return pump to pump enough water up to the tank and into the box to cause it to fill up high enough for the two drain systems to find equilibrium with one another. But something tells me that I really doubt it could ever be a reliable way to run things.
I'd rotate the bulkheads and just drill them into the side of the tank right in front of where they are now. You could make a flat strainer to fit into your bulkheads that would be very low profile so nothing too large would get sucked in and nothing would protrude out into the tank.
That my friend is dead on.......In mere seconds my Hybrid pump with the Dart impeller can suck my sump dry if the tank isn't topped off......my sump is 150 gallons and with the sump running with 18" of water it takes roughly 15-20 seconds tops to hear that pump suck......
Corey had mentioned slim covers....Something I did on my CL supply bulkheads....

 

[dirk_brijs]

Another note, I just thought of......Your CL pump is always going to be bigger than your return pump, so again you might have issues with the CL pulling way faster than your return pump........
You might want to rethink your pump layouts......Barracuda is way to much pump to be pushing through as the return.......Theoretically you should use the Dart for the return and the Barracuda for the CL.....You honestly wasting energy at this point running your CL with 2 separate pumps.....As the tank grows in and corals mature, that would be the time to consider adding the additional pump to the bulkhead.....At the beginning you could easily get away with just using 1 pump to drive the CL system.
MMM guess will have to redraw the CL.
Reason for the larger pump on the return is the distance from the tank. The sump/fuges will be set up away from the room the DT is in. It will actualy run to a complete separated room. So need all the head I can get from the Baracuda.
Reason for the 2 pumps in the CL is the idea I saw and kinda liked from another reefer who had the pump set on a timer to create a different flow pattern every 6 hours to create like in low and hig tide flow.

 

[dirk_brijs]

ok put the intakes now in the tank
so this would work

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk_brijs http:///t/391744/help-with-final-designing-stage#post_3475985
MMM guess will have to redraw the CL.
Reason for the larger pump on the return is the distance from the tank. The sump/fuges will be set up away from the room the DT is in. It will actualy run to a complete separated room. So need all the head I can get from the Baracuda.
Reason for the 2 pumps in the CL is the idea I saw and kinda liked from another reefer who had the pump set on a timer to create a different flow pattern every 6 hours to create like in low and hig tide flow.
Are you pumping up or across to the room.......how far