Help with plumbing needed.

[flower]

Hi,
As stated in the title, I need some help with plumbing...a seahorse fry tank.
I have a 90g potbelly seahorse tank, I need to put a 20g to 30g tank next it. I need to run water between the two so both tanks can be cooled by the same chiller, I already have a sump system, so I can't put the fry tank under it....it must be next it. I need to find a way to remove water to the 30g from the 90g and back again without overflowing either one. The entire purpose of doing this is to keep the fry tank cold enough. A smaller stand alone tank will sit inside the 30g to 20g and the water around it from the chilled DT tank will keep it at the right temp.

 

[flower]

BUMP...Really, no ideas?
I was thinking two pumps the same size on for intake (from display) and one for output (to display)...like a giant canister. If the small pumps are the same size...won't they work at the same time keeping everything balanced? I know plenty of folks who have a refuguim NEXT to the dispaly, as opposed to under it using a sump...how do they do it?
I also read about this method...
Not saying this is the best way to set up a refugium just the way I have mine. My refuguim sits next to my DT, it's lower than my DT, but higher than my sump. Water is feed to it via a maxi jet pump and returned to the sump by way of gravity. I got a 10 gallon drilled tank from my LFS for three bucks and set it up this way.
The only problem with the sump version is the drilling part. I would need an overflow and I really hate trusting a lifter pump, what other kinds of overflows are there...and how do they work?

 

[siptang]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3494911
BUMP...Really, no ideas?
I was thinking two pumps the same size on for intake (from display) and one for output (to display)...like a giant canister. If the small pumps are the same size...won't they work at the same time keeping everything balanced? I know plenty of folks who have a refuguim NEXT to the dispaly, as opposed to under it using a sump...how do they do it?
This can work and I was about to make that suggestion but what if one shorts or breaks?
You will have a floor every where.
I also read about this method...
Not saying this is the best way to set up a refugium just the way I have mine. My refuguim sits next to my DT, it's lower than my DT, but higher than my sump. Water is feed to it via a maxi jet pump and returned to the sump by way of gravity. I got a 10 gallon drilled tank from my LFS for three bucks and set it up this way.
The only problem with the sump version is the drilling part. I would need an overflow and I really hate trusting a lifter pump, what other kinds of overflows are there...and how do they work?
I use tom's water lifter and it works for me pretty well as long as you clean them time to time.
Honestly flower, I wish I can make a great suggestion but I'm not very good at these things. Maybe Seth, Corey or shawn can throw in their expertise here.

 

[sweatervest13]

I think what you need to do is have the 20g to 30g tank drilled or have it overflow to the sump. Then split the return line to both tanks. ??? IDK if that will work but you have more of a margin of error, i would think.
I agree we need Shawn or Cory to help.
Are you looking to keep/raise the SH babies??

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweatervest13 http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3494937
I think what you need to do is have the 20g to 30g tank drilled or have it overflow to the sump. Then split the return line to both tanks. ??? IDK if that will work but you have more of a margin of error, i would think.
I agree we need Shawn or Cory to help.
Are you looking to keep/raise the SH babies??
Thank you Sip, and Sweatervest..... Keeping the tank cold is the primary goal. Otherwise I wouldn't have to connect them. I have to make sure I can keep it cold...20g to 30g will put too much of a strain on my chiller to cool it. I can suppliment the chiller with an iceprobe...but that cooler isn't very strong.
Nova said to go for a 10g to 15g. because the iceprobe isn't that strong. So I opted for a 15g..already purchased, lighting and hood along with a stand for $149.00 at *****. It was on sale and I had a coupon for 10% off. Once I figure out the plumbing, I will get what I need for that. I will put a 5g tank inside the 15g. so I can do what SeahorseSam told me to.
THE PLAN: I'm going to try and keep the potbelly horse fry alive. Once they are too large for the 5g and thay are strong enough, I will remove the 5g and let them mature a bit in the 15g...then transfer them to the 90g and sell them if any make it. My mother is so excited, I didn't know she cared for the seahorses, but she said they were cooler than regular fish, that these have a real personality...I can't disagree with her on that. Since she is on board, I went ahead and got the tank to start putting the plan to action.
I'm hoping Cory, Shawn or Seth will chime in on the plumbing. Cory has helped me so much on plumbing. Shawn and he are the experts I always turn to. Seth...well he always seems to have suggestions, but he is so busy right now that I don't even know if he has time to get on the site. So I'm waiting for some help....

 

[2quills]

Geeez, the girl gets her hands on one sump and now she's talking about building a split system.

What you're looking at would be two systems utilizing the same sump. So in order to do that you'd need an overflow (of some sort) for each tank as well as a return. Incoming flow and outgoing flow.
It can be done a couple of ways. With 2 returns and 2 overflows (one for each tank but smaller stuff on the 15g tank). 1 return (split to feed both tanks) with 2 overflows (one for each tank drain to the sump). You can have both tanks drain into the sump independently. Or you could have one tank drain into the other tank which then drains into the sump (which I would not recommend for this case).
This is treading into deeper waters here since you will be be adding another set of variables into the equation of water + carpet = wet floor. It would be nice to see the system drilled for overflows but it should still be doable with siphon overflows. Though, with the low flow you'd want for a small horse tank you might have to make your own overflow that can run with a much smaller pump than what the display is using.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3494960
Geeez, the girl gets her hands on one sump and now she's talking about building a split system.

What you're looking at would be two systems utilizing the same sump. So in order to do that you'd need an overflow (of some sort) for each tank as well as a return. Incoming flow and outgoing flow.
It can be done a couple of ways. With 2 returns and 2 overflows (one for each tank but smaller stuff on the 15g tank). 1 return (split to feed both tanks) with 2 overflows (one for each tank drain to the sump). You can have both tanks drain into the sump independently. Or you could have one tank drain into the other tank which then drains into the sump (which I would not recommend for this case).
This is treading into deeper waters here since you will be be adding another set of variables into the equation of water + carpet = wet floor. It would be nice to see the system drilled for overflows but it should still be doable with siphon overflows. Though, with the low flow you'd want for a small horse tank you might have to make your own overflow that can run with a much smaller pump than what the display is using.
LOL...You do know I'm not really sure that I understand what you just said after "it can be done a couple of ways"......and I don't really don't understand what a siphon overflow is. The only overflow I have ever had would be the CPR with the lifter pump. Since my lifter pump has a tendency to fail, is there an overflow without the need of a lifter pump? I have never drilled a tank...but I might be able to find someone who could do it for me. ...What size hole, or do I need two holes, (this is a small tank) please explain since I have NEVER had any experience with a drilled tank, how do I keep it from leaking, and how far from the lip do the hole/holes need to be?.
I THINK you are saying for the "run both tanks independently" to set up the 15g with an overflow and run it to the sump and another return to the 15g...a seperate system off the same sump. If YOU do not recommend something, I won't even try it......The water on the floor part I understood perfectly.
How do I do the "split the return? That sounds very hard to do and make work because it changes how fast the water can be pumped to two places at once.
To sychronize the two for the sump? Can I do it if I remove water from the sump to just above the pump, and add water as the systems fill the sump until just an inch above the pump is stable (how I figured out the original tanks water line) then cut the system off see how far the water line comes up to?

 

[saxman]

Hi Flower,
Trying to match two pumps is an exercise in futility...it's not easy to do, and even if you can pull it off, the flow will change slightly as the pumps age/become dirty. What will happen is you'll have a flood on yer hands.
Depending upon the water level in your sump, you can use a U-tube or J-tube as a gravity feed to the secondary tank, then pump the water back into the sump via a small pump (like a MJ). You don't have to drill anything that way. If you do go with an "open siphon" like this, you'll want to be sure that the siphon from the sump doesn't extend down into the water too much, as if the return pump (MJ) ever shuts off, you will get some backsiphon from the sump, and you don't want to overflow the "water jacket" tank.

 

[2quills]

I'll have to put a little more thought into it this evening. But id try to do it the easiest way possible in this situation. What size is the chiller? Is it hooked up to the return pump? Might be easiest to split the return tube coming from the chiller with a smaller hose to feed some water to the 15g tank. Then youd just need a small overflow from that that tank to drain into the sump. And yes it will all have to be set up and adjusted accordingly so there are no floods when power goes out. But thats the easy part.
Finding or making an overflow and spliting the return line in order to feed water to both tanks is your biggest challenge. Its not difficult, just need to add a TEE or a WYE fitting on the return line so that you can tap a second line in there. I dont think youre gonna find too many manufactured overflows that small so you may have to make one out of pvc. Unless you can get it drilled.

 

[flower]

Quote:Originally Posted by saxman http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3495025
Hi Flower,
Trying to match two pumps is an exercise in futility...it's not easy to do, and even if you can pull it off, the flow will change slightly as the pumps age/become dirty. What will happen is you'll have a flood on yer hands.
Depending upon the water level in your sump, you can use a U-tube or J-tube as a gravity feed to the secondary tank, then pump the water back into the sump via a small pump (like a MJ). You don't have to drill anything that way. If you do go with an "open siphon" like this, you'll want to be sure that the siphon from the sump doesn't extend down into the water too much, as if the return pump (MJ) ever shuts off, you will get some backsiphon from the sump, and you don't want to overflow the "water jacket" tank.

Well it looks like the powers that be are "fixing" the site again...Sometimes I wish I could reach thru the cyber space and chicken choke them when they do this. I'm getting older and I don't handle change well anymore.
Saxman,
You are so much smarter than I am, and I know it's hard to communicate with an idot...but when you tell me stuff you really have to dummy it down for me.
I won't go the way of trying to match two pumps. But I'm afraid the rest of what you said is over my head. What in the world is a water jacket tank? I also thought I only had to worry about a siphon from the return....a drilled hole would fix that....at least that is what thought anyway. Am I living in danger of a flood and had no idea????
Siphon from the sump????????? can overflow the display tank?

 

[2quills]

You dont have to match the flow of two pumps in this case as long as theyre both in the sump or you split the one pump that you have.

 

[flower]

Quote:Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3495138
You dont have to match the flow of two pumps in this case as long as theyre both in the sump or you split the one pump that you have.

I looked at the 15g...it has a built in hood, so if I can't get it drilled I will have to get another tank because nothing like an overflow is going to fit on it. I can get an acrylic 15g for $62.00 and with shipping it will cost $80.00 from glasscages. I can take this tank to a glass cutter... but they won't guarantee it won't crack, so I will take my chances and get the one from Glasscages if it does.
I'm tapped out on my fish budget this month so nothing more is going to be purchased or done until November. I purchased the 15g tank with a stand and a digital microscope...after Freds demise I decided I needed a way to really look at my horses, and the tiny things that live with them.
So lets plan around a drilled tank. 1st thing...how large of a hole/holes do I need drilled?

 

[saxman]

What size is your plumbing? The hole size is dependent on the size of the bulkhead. Also, you want to be sure there's a 2" minimum margin between the outer edge of any hole and the edge of the glass panel.
BTW, the "water jacket" tank is the tank you're sitting your nursery tank in...from your description, what you're doing is kind of a double boiler type thing to keep the nursery cool.

 

[flower]

Quote:Originally Posted by saxman http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3495160
What size is your plumbing? The hole size is dependent on the size of the bulkhead. Also, you want to be sure there's a 2" minimum margin between the outer edge of any hole and the edge of the glass panel.
BTW, the "water jacket" tank is the tank you're sitting your nursery tank in...from your description, what you're doing is kind of a double boiler type thing to keep the nursery cool.

OH! Now I get it. Yes one tank fits into the other so the outer tank is the jacket...Thanks
About the plumbing size....is a bulkhead the plastic thing that screws together and fits inside the hole to seal it and hold PVC pipe?
If that is the thingy you are talking about...to drill the tank, do I make 1 hole or two? What size should the hole or holes be, and what size bulkhead should I use?
LOL...and if that thingy is not what a bulkhead is, please explain it to me in dumb, dumb terms so I understand.

 

[2quills]

Sax, If my memory serves right then she's running 1.25" braided flex hose on a cpr overflow that has a 1" bulkhead on her 90g.
I would possibly re-do the plumbing scheme completely for the return, myself. I'm not sure how much room her sump has in the return chamber to accommodate a second pump. So that's why I'm thinking maybe just split that to feed the smaller tank. It's only another 15g max on the system. I think she's running an eheim compact 5000 pump so it should be able to handle a little extra flow for a horse tank since a ton of flow I don't believe is desired for small horses.
Maybe drill the small tank for a 3/4" or 1" bulkhead for drainage. Then you could drill a half inch hole for the return. Or forgo the cost and risk for a second hole all together and do a hang on the back (style) return. Like what you already have on your other tanks, Flower.

 

[flower]

Quote:Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3495274
Sax, If my memory serves right then she's running 1.25" braided flex hose on a cpr overflow that has a 1" bulkhead on her 90g.
I would possibly re-do the plumbing scheme completely for the return, myself. I'm not sure how much room her sump has in the return chamber to accommodate a second pump. So that's why I'm thinking maybe just split that to feed the smaller tank. It's only another 15g max on the system. I think she's running an eheim compact 5000 pump so it should be able to handle a little extra flow for a horse tank since a ton of flow I don't believe is desired for small horses.
Maybe drill the small tank for a 3/4" or 1" bulkhead for drainage. Then you could drill a half inch hole for the return. Or forgo the cost and risk for a second hole all together and do a hang on the back (style) return. Like what you already have on your other tanks, Flower.

I can seem to seperate paragraphs, or check new posts....so forgive how this looks, and I know it's hard to read. I don't know whats wrong..............I have the Ehiem 3000 but I can purchase the 5000 if you think I should. There is no room on the top of the tank, so I will have to have the tank drilled. I'm really tempted to just purchase an acrylic tank predrilled...............so drill it with a 1" for output (drain) and 1/2" one for intake.......................correct?...............................Thank for your help guys......................................I reread your post........................I don't have to drill 2 holes, the little tank is set up for a canister filter, so the return hose could be just a hose going into the tank. So I only need to drill ONE 1" hole.

 

[2quills]

Actually youd need to drill a 1-3/4" hole. 1" is the inside diameter of the bulkhead. 1-3/4" is the outside diameter so thats what youd need to drill to be able to fit the whole thing through the glass or acrylic.

 

[saxman]

Flower, you're correct...although when we say "bulkhead", what we REALLY mean is "bulkhead fitting", as the tank wall itself is actually the bulkhead (wall). Be sure that whatever size you use that you get the hole size of the bulkhead, not the ID of the plumbing (for instance, a 1" bulkhead requires a 1 5/8" hole...sometimes 1 3/4").
EDIT...i had this post written, but walked away without hitting SEND...2Quills already clarified this in his last post.

 

[flower]

Quote:Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3495336
Actually youd need to drill a 1-3/4" hole. 1" is the inside diameter of the bulkhead. 1-3/4" is the outside diameter so thats what youd need to drill to be able to fit the whole thing through the glass or acrylic.

You guys are awesome. I plan to drill one hole 1 3/4" for a bulkhead fitting and run a hose for the return line from the sump. I can get a Y fitting to divide the return, do I need the Ehiem 5000 or is the 3000 that I have good enough?.................... or................ would it be best to use another return pump for the smaller tank and not bother the return line on the 90g tank...their sizes are so different.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/393122/help-with-plumbing-needed#post_3495404
You guys are awesome. I plan to drill one hole 1 3/4" for a bulkhead fitting and run a hose for the return line from the sump. I can get a Y fitting to divide the return, do I need the Ehiem 5000 or is the 3000 that I have good enough?.................... or................ would it be best to use another return pump for the smaller tank and not bother the return line on the 90g tank...their sizes are so different.
Well, I think if I were in your shoes with that set-up I would probably just T off of the return line for the 90g and just have the one pump. In my head that would be the easiest and maybe more efficient way to go.
I believe I remember when I suggested that pump that it was going to have a little more flow than you actually needed. And that was back when you were running more of a full blown reef tank. Now you have horses that we don't want to blast away with heavy flow. So I don't see why you shouldn't try it with the pump you already have. I don't remember what size tubing you have on that pump, was it 5/8 or 3/4"???
You may need to add a valve in order to control the amount of flow going to each tank. Roughly in my head I'm thinking around 10% of the pumps output goes to the 15g tank and 90% goes to the 90g tank. But these are just random thoughts and round about information. You can ofcorse do things how ever you wish.