Hermit Crab in Cold Saltwater Tank?

[rachelrocket]

An experienced freshwater aquarist, I'm venturing for the first time into saltwater tanks. My tank (currently in the ammonia/nitrite spike phases) is going to be a super-sea star habitat and I'm interested in introducing hermit crabs into the tank.
I love the scarlet and blue-leg hermit crabs, but am pretty sure they require a warmer habitat than the sea stars will like (65-70 F).
Are there any hermit crabs that would thrive in a cold saltwater tank? If so, at what point could I introduce them?
Thank you for your thoughts!
Rachel

 

[30-xtra high]

never heard of a sea star enjoying coldwater... who'd you hear that from?

 

[julie853]

I have 2 seastars that are in my saltwater tank and the temp is at 80 degrees.I would think you might want to get a heater in there they will do just fine in warm water.I'm pretty sure they should be in warm water.Just my opion though.

 

[ophiura]

Can you explain more about what you are doing with this cold seastar habitat tank? Is this supposed to be like a Pacific NW tank. Are you getting a major chiller? And who will be providing the stars?

 

[rachelrocket]

It is going to be a Pacific NW tank, yes. The pet stores I've talked to say that I may not need a chiller (as my apartment is cold most of the year) but if I need one to keep the temperature low, I'll purchase one hopefully from craigslist (I've seen the prices- gulp!). I'm getting stars from one of the local aquariums and also populating the tank with sea slugs and anenomes. I'm not really planning on having many fishes in the tank (ergo the choice for a cold tank). I assume from the initial response that even stars from the Indian ocean (chocolate chip, etc) wouldn't be happy in a cold tank? I apologise for my ignorance; the only places I've been able to find information on cold water sea stars has been my local aquarium! Thanks!

 

[fender]

Don't know about hermits but for a cold water tank... I would get a catalina goby. Beautiful fish that likes the 65-70 range and often dies in tropical tanks.

 

[royal gang]

ehh... u need 100lbs of LR for a linckia :O

 

[rachelrocket]

But hermit crabs? I know, for example, that there are 50 varieties of hermit crabs in AK, so it must be possible. . .

 

[ophiura]

No, there are NO seastars available in this hobby that will be happy in that tank.
Seastars in general are not easy animals to keep. Be sure you only get predatory stars which at least have a chance to be fed, but they are very delicate in general to keep.
How big is this tank?

 

[rachelrocket]

The tank is 29 gallons. I'm using a chiller, etc. I'm just finding it difficult to find other people who have cold water tanks, and advice on same.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by RachelRocket
The tank is 29 gallons. I'm using a chiller, etc. I'm just finding it difficult to find other people who have cold water tanks, and advice on same.
Rachel, Ophiura is the "Star Shark" She knows stars. If she says you can't do it, then TRUST her. There aren't many stars that live in a 29, and with it being that cold, TRUST OPHIURA!!!!! I am not trying to bash you or be rude, I am trying to save you from a costly mistake and killing innocent animals.

 

[rachelrocket]

I'm trying to mimic my natural Pacific NW environment. I don't intend to purchase stars that are from the tropics; they are local stars that have been collected by an aquarium in Oregon from the Oregon coast in the tidal zone.
Ophiura, I entirely understand how much more experienced you are than I in these matters, but I'd submit that there are several varieties of sea stars in the Pacific NW that are very, very happy in quite cold water. I don't intend to challenge anyone's expertise- I apologise if my post came off that way. I'm just trying to learn.
If this is the wrong site for cold saltwater tanks, I'll be on my way- but could anyone point me in the right direction? Surely, there are other people who do cold saltwater tanks!

 

[ophiura]

I certainly did not say that there were not seastars suitable for cold water. :notsure: I would never imply or state that because it is absolutely untrue. When I say no seastars in this hobby - that is true - none of the coldwater NW Pacific stars are widly available in this hobby. None of the stars from the Indo Pacific or Caribbean are suitable...perhaps that was the confusion. But of course there are cold water stars, seastars are a dominant animal in the Pacific NW....but as you see people don't tend to keep these types of systems.
Seastars, however, are not necessarily easy animals to keep, this is ESPECIALLY true in a very small tank. Most of the predatory seastars in the Pacific NW (meaning those suitable for captivity because they can easily be fed) get quite large. So really, I don't know how practical it is to make a seastar habitat in a 29g tank. IME with cold water stars - and it is limited but I have a bit - they are or get pretty large (or at least would benefit from the stability and feeding opportunities in a larger system).
FWIW, there are few tropical seastars suitable for that tank size either, I am afraid. It has little to do with the temperature. Now many of the Pacific NW stars are associated with tidepools, so they may have relatively more tolerance of changes in water parameters...relatively...most tropical seastars do not have a great range of tolerance for things like specific gravity.
Acclimation problems, which may related to inability to adapt to synthetic salt mixes, are still a potential issue. Does your local aquarium use natural seawater?

 

[steveweast]

As a keeper of two cold water Pacific NW tanks (actually, it's mostly PNW....I also have some cold Australian critters too)....I'd be happy to answer any question that you might have. There are lots of stars that are readily available to you if you are a PNW native and don't mind getting wet. Most of the stars around here are predatory....and as a result....are very easy to keep. Just feed them scallop...or a clam. As for your cold water tank....do not use anything that comes from warm water....like liverock....use our indigenous rock instead....Oh...and stop listening to LFS that know nothing about cold water tanks. One more thing....I'm a little concerned with your temperature range....I keep mine at 55 F which is about our average temps in Puget Sound....in summer it may get to 60.....in winter it can get as low as the upper 30's. Here's a few pics of my system....

 

[steveweast]

Some more....

 

[cannonman]

Wow, fantastic pictures- those will spark some interest.

 

[michaeltx]

wonderful pictures as all of them I see from your systems.
They have vibrant and rich colors and very healthy as always. and what a system.
What are the specs on it if you dont mind me asking?
Mike

 

[scubaguy]

Awsome pics and that is one big skimmer if that is what it is in the last pic. Post some more later, PLEASE.

 

[ophiura]

Beautiful shots as always!

And it truly is a gorgeous type of system to keep, but most people don't realize it

...If I had access I would definitely go this route because I would love to feature stars - of such diversity in shape and color - and as noted because so many PNW stars are predatory it makes them easier to keep than the tropical species available (if you are looking for color - Linckia and such).
What would be your recommendations in terms of minimum tank size for a tank to feature these stars? I guess it depends on what is meant by "feature" as a single specimen might do that. But to show off several species, and do anemones etc as well?
Personally I would go larger (especially if you are new to the hobby trying to keep seastars) and I agree, now that I review other parts of the thread. Most LFS are not likely to provide good advice on this type of tank. I would NOT leave it up to have a cold apartment to keep it cold enough for these animals. I would really decide..."YES, I am going for this!" full on with the right equipment. Or buy a $30 heater and stick with a tropical tank

JMO though. As shown it can be extremely rewarding when done well

Steve - do you use NSW? I would also love to know other specs!!

 

[steveweast]

I probably should not have posted that last pic....all that equipment is for my 850 gal warm water reef. The cold water system is really just a ghetto system that is using some spare space that I had in my equipment room. I wanted to test the potential for keeping a cold system since I dive Puget Sound about 10 times a year. The "test" tanks have been set up for about two years now.....I plan on setting up a real cold water display sometime in the future.
As for the tanks....it's a VERY simple system compared to warm water keeping. There's two tanks....one about 150 gals....one about 50 gals. The tanks share a common sump. In the sump is a small Deltec skimmer. The return pump goes through a 1/2 hp chiller. Lighting (which is irrelevant for cold water) is a few T5's over each tank. The tanks and sump are made from 1" thick acrylic to prevent sweating. There is a single powerhead in each tank to provide more circulation.....THAT"S it.....very basic.
The rock is from Puget Sound. Most of the invertebrates are from Puget Sound too....but....most of the fish are from the temperate waters of Southern Australia.
In general....cold water tanks are easier and CHEAPER to run than a warm water SPS tank.....and about the same cost as running a typical softy tank. Yes...there's a chiller....but....no lighting is required....and certainly not metal halides. There are no Calcium additions necessary (and minimal alk additions)....no reactors required....no fish disease....no mass circulation required.....limited algae (from the lack of lighting)....it's just easier. The # 1 drawback to cold water reef keeping is obtaining stock....and that's no small hurdle to jump unless you're near the PNW or perhaps the Northeast.
As for the subject tank of this thread...I would suggest the following:
1) use a chiller....most of the Puget Sound stars and anemones will begin to melt down above about 68F.
2) Place some bioballs in the "wet" portion of the sump for bacterial sites and cycle the tank for two months using NH4CL (ammonia chloride). This will create a huge bacterial population that will minimize die off when you add Puget Sound rock.
3) Use Puget Sound rock....it looks natural.....warm water limestone rock is not native to this region and looks weird in a cold tank.
4) In a 29....I'd say...maybe one med size anemone....two stars...some hermits and snails. If you want fish like a gunnel, grunt sculpin or maybe some of the native blennies....skip the anemone.
Because most of the cold critters are non-photosynthetic, you'll need to feed ALOT. This will generate a NO3 problem over time. A good quality skimmer is a MUST here...and one sized several times above the size of your tank. The Puget Sound rock will provide no dentrification since it is granite. Many inverts start to show stress around the 20ppm NO3 level....so controlling NO3 levels is very important.....water changes is a good method or you could use a dentrification reactor.