hey broomer5 or anyone else
- Thread starter pat
- Start date
pat
Member
ok im am just planning so nothing is written in stone, so i have about a 120 or so and have a cpr 800 gph overflow. and sump. i was also thinking about throwing into the mix a 10 gallon refugium that is returned to the sump by siphon. i was thinking some kind of a canister filter to go from the sump into the refugium, but could also have like a T on the line so that i could quickly attach a vacuum line to clean substrate. i have sort of made a diagram in paintbrush (its all i have at work) of how i think it might work, but your the man on this stuff so i thought i'd ask. you got an e-mail where i could send it? *oops middes the e-mail first time around, its on the way
[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: Pat ]
[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: Pat ]
mr . salty
Active Member
Sounds alot like my refugium setup.Except mine is gravity fed from the overflow.Then syphoned into the sump.The main problem is the syphon.You need to make sure you dont loose syphon or else you have a flood,and a dry sump. I solved this by using TWO 3/4 inch lines.If one should slow/stop,the other has the capasity to keep it going on it's own till I notice the problem.You should also check them every day.And clean them once a month...
broomer5
Active Member
Hey Pat,
Not a bad drawing at all.
Are you planning to have a pump going from the sump to the canister, that will eventually feed your refugium ? I'm assuming so at this point.
I will get back with you after I have some time to study your plan some.
I see some potential problems, but don't have the time right now to dive into it.
Be back to you later
Not a bad drawing at all.
Are you planning to have a pump going from the sump to the canister, that will eventually feed your refugium ? I'm assuming so at this point.
I will get back with you after I have some time to study your plan some.
I see some potential problems, but don't have the time right now to dive into it.
Be back to you later
pat
Member
hey whenever is good for you, that was really just a brainstorm idea, no where near final, as i expected problems would arise. i was thinking on the gravity siphon from the refugium bact to the sump that if i could get the water level in the refugium higher than that ov the sump during normal operation, then it would flow, and when the power goes off, the level in the sump will rise, and the refugium would fall and when the two are at the same level the siphon would be held, is this correct??? i know the plan is still rough, thats why i brought it to the table, for revisions and specifics. i would like to keep the option of having the T to be able to quickly hook up the hose to vacuum the substrate, if that is at all a possibility. thanks for giving it a look
mr . salty
Active Member
The thing about the syphon is that it will keep the water levels the same ALL THE TIME. That is how a syphon works.So you need to position the two so that the water level is acceptable during operation.I had to raise my refugium about three inches higher off the floor than my sump to acchieve this balance.
pat
Member
yeah i had actually figured on that, and in the drawing that i e-mailed to broomer 5, the refugium is actually like halhway up the page, much higher than it would actually be in operation, but just to get the point across. i tried to think abuot every problem that i could think of concerning flow rates and exactly where the water was coming from, and i got to the point that it looked like it MIGHT work, but then again its me, and i dont have a whole lot of experience with this stuff. is there a way that i can like paste the image in a post so then everyone who looks at this thread will be on the same page, instead of me having to e-mail copy's???
broomer5
Active Member
Okay,
Going to type this out as I go.
Let's make some assumptions first. We'll assume that your existing overflow/sump/return pump are all functioning correctly now, and that you have everything hooked up as in your drawing.
First we'll walk through what can happen if the additional canister refugium pump is not turned on. This will help us determine the height that the refugium must be at in relation to the sump.
Stick with me here - I am thinking this out as we go
1) Start out at a steady state - power off scenerio, with no water in refugium, sump level at power off dark blue line.
2) Fill the refugium by hand pouring water up to the power off dark blue line.
3) Prime your pink gravity siphon line ( the old suck water and double thumb the ends of the hose trick )
4) Place one end of gravity feed line into refugium, the other in sump. If indeed the water levels are equal between the two - no flow. Power still off - steady state - water finds it's own level.
5) Turn on main return pump only - water travels up to display tank, sump level continues to drop until overflow kicks in, adding water back into sump, then at some point thereafter - we arrive at the new normal operating sump level - your light blue line.
6) Now since the water level in the sump is lower than that of the refugium, and if your siphon is good - you would see water beginning to move from refugium to the sump, raising the normal sump level to some new point in your sump as expected, and the gravity siphon will continue until either both sides are equal, or you drain too much from your refugium, exposing the siphon tube opening, and lose your prime, thus losing the siphon. It's a balancing act, one that requires you to play with the height of refugium vs sump, normal water levels vs power loss levels, and volume of water vs inches in level changes to both sides.
I can see now that you may want to not have your refugium siphon installed as in your drawing - with it's tube at the bottom of the refugium, but better yet get a bulkhead fitting and tap into the side of your refugium at some point up from the bottom. This would prevent the possibility of completely draining the refugium. Maybe you already thought of this and I have misundstood the drawing.
7) With that change in mind, it sort of blows my thought processes, so let me go refill my coffee cup.
8) Okay ... I'm back now
9) Think I may go and make a change to your drawing ..... it might make it easier to follow the next scenerio.
Be back later ...........
Going to type this out as I go.
Let's make some assumptions first. We'll assume that your existing overflow/sump/return pump are all functioning correctly now, and that you have everything hooked up as in your drawing.
First we'll walk through what can happen if the additional canister refugium pump is not turned on. This will help us determine the height that the refugium must be at in relation to the sump.
Stick with me here - I am thinking this out as we go
1) Start out at a steady state - power off scenerio, with no water in refugium, sump level at power off dark blue line.
2) Fill the refugium by hand pouring water up to the power off dark blue line.
3) Prime your pink gravity siphon line ( the old suck water and double thumb the ends of the hose trick )
4) Place one end of gravity feed line into refugium, the other in sump. If indeed the water levels are equal between the two - no flow. Power still off - steady state - water finds it's own level.
5) Turn on main return pump only - water travels up to display tank, sump level continues to drop until overflow kicks in, adding water back into sump, then at some point thereafter - we arrive at the new normal operating sump level - your light blue line.
6) Now since the water level in the sump is lower than that of the refugium, and if your siphon is good - you would see water beginning to move from refugium to the sump, raising the normal sump level to some new point in your sump as expected, and the gravity siphon will continue until either both sides are equal, or you drain too much from your refugium, exposing the siphon tube opening, and lose your prime, thus losing the siphon. It's a balancing act, one that requires you to play with the height of refugium vs sump, normal water levels vs power loss levels, and volume of water vs inches in level changes to both sides.
I can see now that you may want to not have your refugium siphon installed as in your drawing - with it's tube at the bottom of the refugium, but better yet get a bulkhead fitting and tap into the side of your refugium at some point up from the bottom. This would prevent the possibility of completely draining the refugium. Maybe you already thought of this and I have misundstood the drawing.
7) With that change in mind, it sort of blows my thought processes, so let me go refill my coffee cup.
8) Okay ... I'm back now
9) Think I may go and make a change to your drawing ..... it might make it easier to follow the next scenerio.
Be back later ...........
broomer5
Active Member
Okay .. back now and even more coffee.
Although it may require some additional work, I think if you were to install bulkhead fittings on your refugium and sump, and run your gravity line from your refugium back to your sump - it may be a more fool proof method. If the pink gravity line from your refugium back to your sump is capable of handling more water flow than the canister filter can pump into the refugium, you will never overflow the refugium, and if you have the refugium placed at the correct height in relation to the sump, it would be more like a trickling line back to the sump.
Just a thought.
Like I said - I've never done this.
I may be missing something, and I'll bet Mr.Salty or others will have some advise on this too.
Here's what I see as another approach.
The process continues
Although it may require some additional work, I think if you were to install bulkhead fittings on your refugium and sump, and run your gravity line from your refugium back to your sump - it may be a more fool proof method. If the pink gravity line from your refugium back to your sump is capable of handling more water flow than the canister filter can pump into the refugium, you will never overflow the refugium, and if you have the refugium placed at the correct height in relation to the sump, it would be more like a trickling line back to the sump.
Just a thought.
Like I said - I've never done this.
I may be missing something, and I'll bet Mr.Salty or others will have some advise on this too.
Here's what I see as another approach.
The process continues
pat
Member
ok if i did this, had the water level in the sump just somewhat above where i want the water line, for the trickle retun to the sump. other then that the system should work theroetically???? what are your opinions on a couple of other things, having the line from the sump to the canister filter be able to shut off and open a line for a hose to vacuum substrate??? it seems to me that i dont evem need one at the very 1st inlet futting, at the top of the sump, cause when i hit the switch and the line closes from the sump to the cannister filter, and opn the line from the vacuum. as sooon as this pulls the water down far enough, the overflow should hold as in a power failure is this correct???? my only concern on this point is if the cannister filter would not be able to keep up with the return, slowly draining the lowe levels, back into the tank. do you think that the level in the sump would then drop fast enough to possibly burn out my return pump??? i noticed that you aslo put in the 2 pumps in the sump. do you know if there is a cannister filter that has an external pump, or do they all sort of run on an internal specifics, i havent looked that much into those yet, this i just wanted to see if this idea would work. thanks for modifying the drawing, easy to see. i knew that wasn't the exact route that the siphon would follow, but a clear idea, but i like yours better, takes out the problem, thanks for workin the pic. ok what about size pvc to use, would i be ok if i used the 1/2 i already have on much of it (return to sump would be bigger, sorrect?) its nice to have all of the options, w/o anything being bought except the overflow and actual sump.
broomer5
Active Member
Actually Pat I am sort of wondering about the canister filter. I was more concerned with getting the water over to the refugium, through the canister, and this small pump would allow for this to happen. Then just let gravity drain the refugium back to the sump.
You'd want your refugium water level ( the place where the bulkhead is installed )to be higher than the normal running level in your sump, and allow this trickle line to get the water from the refugium back to the sump. Same principle as your display tank, just on a much smaller scale, with much less water flow too.
I do not use a vacuum hose on my substrate, so I am not sure what you want to do with that. Sounds like you want to suck water into a canister filter ? Maybe you could explain this a little more ?
You never want either pump to run dry, as damage will occur and it will overheat.
Keep going !
You'd want your refugium water level ( the place where the bulkhead is installed )to be higher than the normal running level in your sump, and allow this trickle line to get the water from the refugium back to the sump. Same principle as your display tank, just on a much smaller scale, with much less water flow too.
I do not use a vacuum hose on my substrate, so I am not sure what you want to do with that. Sounds like you want to suck water into a canister filter ? Maybe you could explain this a little more ?
You never want either pump to run dry, as damage will occur and it will overheat.
Keep going !
pat
Member
ok well this whole setup is going into like a 125 or so, which i plan on being like an aggressive, and no clean up crew, for obvious reasons, so i was going to put in cruched coral for easier cleaning, and was just wanting to be able to hook up a real quick vacuum without disconnecting much, just turn the water on from the "vacuum to clean the substrate, and shutting the line from the sump. then the water will continue to be drawn from the vacuum in the tank, instead of from the sump, and keeping the line from the overflow open should keep the water level in the sump from dropping to the point where the pump will burn up. seems just like it would have the same flow rate into the canister, keeping the same flow on the return from the refugium, but instead of pulling from the sump, the canister would pull from the main tank, putting just a lighter load on the main overflow. would be the same water level in the sump???
broomer5
Active Member
Pat, I think I follow what you want to do.
If it were me, I would isolate the refugium from the sump/main tank when I was doing this vacuuming. The vacuum ( which I've never seen or used ) must have some way to catch the crap you are sucking up .. right ?
A filter bag or something ?
Even if it does, some of the smaller particles may find there way through, and I suppose you want the canister to catch them ?
Either way, I would block flow to the refugium, so while you are cleaning the main tank, you are not running any water to the refugium.
PVC ball valves and tee's placed in the correct places would allow you to block off the refugium while cleaning, then when done, open up the bypass and run as normal.
Hope this helps .......
Aren't DIY projects fun
Brian
If it were me, I would isolate the refugium from the sump/main tank when I was doing this vacuuming. The vacuum ( which I've never seen or used ) must have some way to catch the crap you are sucking up .. right ?
A filter bag or something ?
Even if it does, some of the smaller particles may find there way through, and I suppose you want the canister to catch them ?
Either way, I would block flow to the refugium, so while you are cleaning the main tank, you are not running any water to the refugium.
PVC ball valves and tee's placed in the correct places would allow you to block off the refugium while cleaning, then when done, open up the bypass and run as normal.
Hope this helps .......
Aren't DIY projects fun
Brian
mr . salty
Active Member
This whole thing looks pretty good,and very doable,,,Except for the vaccume idea.I would suggest you get a PYTHON substrate cleaner for this.That would eliminate the problems you will probably have getting that other idea working...You also should look at using a sand bed instead of CC. You don't need to vaccume sand.(problem solved)
pat
Member
ok so now that we have the bugs in the design pretty much figured through, now for pvc sizing. i already have the 1 1/4 flex in the drawing and the i have a whole mess of 1/2 inch pvc that i plan on using for the lines to the canister filter and the refugium, and i am assuming a larger size, probably 3/4 for the return to the sump from the refugium, going on the same logic as with the overflow, make it capable of more water than the pump can provide. only think left is the return to tank line. when they measure how many gallons per hour at a specific height, what size pvc are they going by??? anyways that should be the last problem till i set it all up and try it, also havent gotten a return pump yet, wanna get close to 800 gph w/o going over
mr . salty
Active Member
The size of the return line depends on what pump you end up getting.Just match the line to the pump...I would also highly suggest you use a clear/see through line for the syphon return from the refugium.This way you can see if there are bubbles forming in the line,and stop potential disaster/flooding...
[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: MR . SALTY ]
[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: MR . SALTY ]