House Health Care Debacle-WARNING POLITICAL CONTENT

mantisman51

Active Member
OK, Reef, Oscar and Darth, you were right. It has turned into a government take over and I would rather go on with the expensive stuff available now. I admit, I got sucked into buying the scarlet herring they were dangling. Baucus and Leiberman said there is no way that they'll let any kind of govt plan make it to the floor now. I hope they keep their word. What has been presented by the House is pure Canadian style socialism. GRRRRR. I fell for it.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/3169914
OK, Reef, Oscar and Darth, you were right. It has turned into a government take over and I would rather go on with the expensive stuff available now. I admit, I got sucked into buying the scarlet herring they were dangling. Baucus and Leiberman said there is no way that they'll let any kind of govt plan make it to the floor now. I hope they keep their word. What has been presented by the House is pure Canadian style socialism. GRRRRR. I fell for it.

Keep your fingers crossed. There are enough senate votes against the government plan to cut it out, I think.
My prediction is they will greatly reduce the teeth in the abortion language the house inserted and back off the government program and come up with a trigger mechanism for one. I think that is the only way they can get it through both houses.
 

scsinet

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3170040
My prediction is they will greatly reduce the teeth in the abortion language the house inserted and back off the government program and come up with a trigger mechanism for one. I think that is the only way they can get it through both houses.
I've read that if abortion is funded in any way, 10 dems won't vote for it. If it's not funded, 40 dems won't vote for it (or maybe it was the other way around). Either way, they lose their majority. This should be interesting.
Make no mistake about it, we are living in history making times right now. Future generations will ask us about this time the way we asked our grandparents about the great depression.
 

oscardeuce

Active Member
I am like Gandalf on this health care "reform".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmDuG_NkgaQ
In as written it could legislate me out of my current job by taxing people with "cadillac" health care and forcing them to "voluntarily " choose either another "approved' health plan or the gov't option.
Either way we are on the verge of losing a large chunk of our liberty.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3170106
I've read that if abortion is funded in any way, 10 dems won't vote for it. If it's not funded, 40 dems won't vote for it (or maybe it was the other way around). Either way, they lose their majority. This should be interesting.
Make no mistake about it, we are living in history making times right now. Future generations will ask us about this time the way we asked our grandparents about the great depression.
Oh it's gonna be a crap shoot. With the abortion ban and government option in there I don't think they have a chance in the senate. What they have to hope for is when it comes down to brass tacks the democrats shall heed their master's call and pass the Ossiah's health decree.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/3169914
I hope they keep their word. What has been presented by the House is pure Canadian style socialism. GRRRRR. I fell for it.
Really? If so, did they ever think of emulating a system that actually WORKED!!!
I'm a Canadian trained nurse. After school I looked for a job. Nadda. Was it because they were all well staffed? Heck no! It was because the hospital (government) couldn't "afford" any more.
There were tons of extra empty beds too. Was this because Canada has super healthy people? Heck no! It was because we couldn't afford to keep those beds open.
The patients were always super sick as well. You had to be "Knock Knock Knocking on Heaven's Door" to get admitted or even to get in to see a specialist. "Well, Mrs Hix, you have appendicitis, we can get you in a month from Friday to have it removed. In the meantime, if the severe pain goes away, come to the ER because it may have ruptured".
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3170210
Really? If so, did they ever think of emulating a system that actually WORKED!!!
I'm a Canadian trained nurse. After school I looked for a job. Nadda. Was it because they were all well staffed? Heck no! It was because the hospital (government) couldn't "afford" any more.
There were tons of extra empty beds too. Was this because Canada has super healthy people? Heck no! It was because we couldn't afford to keep those beds open.
The patients were always super sick as well. You had to be "Knock Knock Knocking on Heaven's Door" to get admitted or even to get in to see a specialist. "Well, Mrs Hix, you have appendicitis, we can get you in a month from Friday to have it removed. In the meantime, if the severe pain goes away, come to the ER because it may have ruptured".

That is the eventual goal anyway. This is just creating an artificial market to force everyone to "choose" to get on the government run system.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Greeeeeat. We use to joke that our supplies were expired from 3rd world country and we spent half our day trying to McGiver things together to make it acceptable.
My Uncle had reoccurring brain tumors for 10 years. After each round of treatment he would get an MRI done to see if it shrunk or grew. He had to wait a month each time to get in to see the Neurosurgeon to hear the results. He had to do this a good 15 times... you have no idea what kind of hell that was.... that's about 15 months out of 10 years waiting to see if you were going to live or die....
 

ironeagle2006

Active Member
Trust me the UBER LIBERALS on this board will hate to read that. That is our future if the PUBLIC OPTION PASSES. I for one can describe what is like to have a state run dental insurance myself. Try having wisdom teeth that came in rotten due to Dilanton the first line of Epilepsy medications that they use. Well mine came in totally rotten on the inside think hollow.
I have Medicaid which is the State run insurance and the closest Dentist that takes it from em is 60 miles away and they need me to see an Oral surgeon to get them removed. However the closest one that takes the insurance is in St Louis 4 hours away. The dentist goes and the GOVERMENT WANTS TO TAKE OVER ALL HEALTHCARE.
For myslef the dentist is going to do the procedure herself after seeing the X-rays and going I can do this it will be a BIG TIME PAIN but I can do it. BTW I have lived with these for 9 years and until 2 of them shattered the Goverment said they did not need removed even though they had abcess under them for the last 3 years at times.
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3170210
Really? If so, did they ever think of emulating a system that actually WORKED!!!
That
would be the question.
There are plenty of systems that actually work. Our politicians have chosen to ignore them.
Why?
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006
http:///forum/post/3170402
Trust me the UBER LIBERALS on this board will hate to read that.
As an über liberal myself, I don't get your point.
Who provided the Dilanton?
Who developed it?
Who tested it for side effects and who declared it safe?
Is it fair to assume that you're on medicaid because you can't afford corporate insurance?
Why not?
The thing is, you were given a medication declared safe by the FDA.
I'm not trying to be facetious or irreverent - I genuinely want to know: How would having had private insurance have ameliorated your problem?
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
I'm in the process of reading the house bill now, and I've found several things that bother me about it, but some of the criticisms that have been leveled at government-run health care in this thread don't make any sense to me. Cranberry's Uncle who survived 10 years with a brain tumor - had to wait to see a neurosurgeon. HE SURVIVED 10 YEARS!!!! so the healthcare system appears to actualy have worked. And Ironeagle - medicaid is not a state run dental plan, it is a state-paid dental plan, and you did get treatment, no? I have a private dental plan at work, and still have to drive 30 minutes to get to my oral surgeon. There may be plenty of problems with state-run plans (although the VA and Medicare are pertty good), but the two examples above aren't valid criticisms of such plans.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/3171360
Cranberry's Uncle who survived 10 years with a brain tumor - had to wait to see a neurosurgeon. HE SURVIVED 10 YEARS!!!! so the healthcare system appears to actualy have worked.
Oh, you think? He didn't survive so long because of the healthcare.... He survived so long because it wasn't malignant for the first 7 years. Oh, and did I mention that we did a fund raiser and gathered up $100,000 so we could send him to the US for one of the rounds of radiation/chemo. I would have the MRIs sent to me here in the states to have them read by the Neurosurgeon I worked for. So ya... when ya REALLY need something.... ya gotta have your reports sent to the States to have them read in a timely fashion. When ya REALLY need treatment sometimes your family has to drain all they own so they can send you to the states for treatment.... sounds like a plan that works!!
I'm the one that told my family that my Uncle had run out of options. It should have been his Neurosurgeon, but that appointment was 3 weeks away.
How about my Grandma..... couldn't get in to see the heart specialist right away and she was having some increased symptoms. Had an appointment made for a few weeks away. Finally she had pains that brought her to the ER. She wasn't from the city where we were from, but from one of the outports. She had to wait there 4 days to get a bed in the better hospital where they could do her angiogram. By that time she was very unstable and she died on the table having the diagnostic test done. They even said the delay was probably what resulted in her death on that day. And for some reason, in Canada, that explanation was ok. Do you know the lawsuit that will result in here in the US... the land of the almighty Lawsuit.
Something that I remember in school that made me so sad. It was a neuro floor, lots of strokes and what not. You were always understaffed, not that there aren't nurses to call to come in... there was no money to call them in. We didn't have support staff like nurse aides to help out. So if the nurse got busy with "nurse stuff" things like ADLs got left behind. I remember this stroke victim who didn't have family to come see him. His dinner tray was placed in front of him and 11:30 am..... it sat there until 3pm until I saw it there. No one had a chance to feed him. I asked him why he didn't call. "He said he knew we were busy and that his meal wasn't life or death".

Even being Canadian, I can't tell you the ins and outs of our Health Care System on the political level. I can only talk on the level of being a consumer and a healthcare worker and the limitations I found. So on the consumer level.... what the Canadian people are actually feeling and experiencing.... I am a better source of information than anyone here who hasn't experienced it first hand. They will even say the system does not work well, and they were raised in and and are very forgiving of it. It's like patients appreciate everything you do, no matter how minimal it is.... UP THERE. Do you know how that WON'T fly here in the states where everyone thinks they are owed something? Where they are ready to sue at a drop of a hat and want the best here and now?
Even if the system ran flawlessly up there... doesn't mean it would work for the general mentality of the US citizen.
 

ironeagle2006

Active Member
Geridoc try finding a DENTIST OR ORAL SURGEON that will take it. Hell try finding a young doctor anymore or a Specalist anymore that will take MEDICARE. I am on SSDI because of my disability and the closest Neurologist that will even take Medicare is CHICAGO for new Paitents. Why they LOOSE MONEY WHEN THEY SEE US. With Medicaid the docs have to wait MONTHS to get paid and if they do any paperwork WRONG even forget to dot an I they DO NOT GET PAID. Same with Medicare. The only way I have my current GP is as a favor to my mother who the doctor liked to work with when my mom was a nurse at the local hospital.
As for the Dilantion question it has only been out on the market for 40 years how would I know that I have a friend that has BEEN TAKING IT THAT LONG. BTW HE HAS NO TEETH LEFT he was forced to get dentures 15 years ago all related to Dilantion. Yes it is a good drug when it works however it is ineffective in TBI caused Epilepsy like mine they have found out.
As for the Statement on Medicare being good try being BANKRUPT. The VA yeah right my buddies that are Gulf War 1 vets here in IL closest place they can get care is Danville IL 3 hours away.
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
I think all of you would benefit from consulting the publicly available wait time sites in Canada - they list the anticipated wait times to see specialists, and what they show is that the wait times are very short. It took me 5 weeks to get an appointment to see a neurologist in New York, longer than it would take in Montreal according to their web site. Conservatives in the US love to bash the Canadian system, which BTW is not government run, but government paid, but the hard facts are that infant mortality is lower and life expectancy is longer in Canada than in the US. The Commonwealth Fund has evaluated healthcare accessibility internationally, and the US is near the bottom of the list, while Canada is in 6th position. As for Medicare being bankrupt, not quite, and much of the additional cost comes from the 12-14% override that is paid to private insurers who offer Medicare coverage. Most Medicare patients I know are quite happy with their health care. I guess my overall point is that anecdotes about poor access to health care don't really make a good argument - it is like getting hit by lightning - a rare event, but everybody talks about it when it happens.
 

cranberry

Active Member
LOL... exactly why I can't debate with political mindsets. You guys are wired differently. I can tell you personally the experiences I've had being a Canadian... if you want to argue that with things you read in your statistical papers... go ahead. But I'm not a Canadian living in Canada trying to agrue the differences that exist in the states. I've experienced both. I prefer the way it is in the US now compared to the way it is in Canada. If you want to believe people love their health care in Canada... *shrugs*.
If we could just pick up the whole process as it is in Canada right now and plunked it down in the US right now.... I'm telling you, you guys would have a cow.
Raise your hands. Who has been admitted to a hospital in Canada?
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3171428
LOL... exactly why I can't debate with political mindsets. You guys are wired differently. I can tell you personally the experiences I've had being a Canadian... if you want to argue that with things you read in your statistical papers... go ahead. But I'm not a Canadian living in Canada trying to agrue the differences that exist in the states. I've experienced both. I prefer the way it is in the US now compared to the way it is in Canada. If you want to believe people love their health care in Canada... *shrugs*.
If we could just pick up the whole process as it is in Canada right now and plunked it down in the US right now.... I'm telling you, you guys would have a cow.
Raise your hands. Who has been admitted to a hospital in Canada?
I don't deny that you have had "experiences" with health care, but public health policy has to be based on population considerations, i.e. statistics. The hard fact is that 13% (median) of US citizens delayed accessing health care because of cost or limited availability. The figure in Canada is far lower, as it is in many states in the US. It is possible to provide access to more people who need it! the alternative, to just say "no!" and keep things as they are, is unacceptable. We will have Oscardeuce complaining (justifiably) that too many of the patients he sees skip out on their bills, we will have people who can't get care and people who become impoverished trying to pay their medical bills; we will remain near the bottom of the list of countries in terms of life expectancy, live birth rate, etc. Unacceptable in this country!
 

cranberry

Active Member

Having personally experienced both, and on both sides of the coin (as a consumer and a provider) if I were to get sick where time was of the essence, I would rather be where I am right now. Not all the black and white statistics in the world can tell me what I, my family, my community, my people feel and experience.
 

reefraff

Active Member
I used to live in Missoula Montana. It's kind of the medical hub for podunct. We had plenty of Canadians come to town for treatment because their system sucked. So who you going to believe, your lying eyes or a government website that claims short wait times for their system
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3171442
I used to live in Missoula Montana. It's kind of the medical hub for podunct. We had plenty of Canadians come to town for treatment because their system sucked. So who you going to believe, your lying eyes or a government website that claims short wait times for their system

Wait a minute - we can't have it both ways. Either medical care is hard to access in the US under the US system (Ironeagle), or there is so much slack in the system that foreign nationals can come here in vast numbers and receive immediate care (Reefraff). In fact (here I go with those darned statistics again) the upper midwest has some of the best access figures in the US.
 
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